Single seat instruction
There was a post the other day on here or elsewhere that suggested a Typhoon pilot had completed the OCU course entirely on the simulator. Not sure if that was serious or not.
In WWII, almost every RAF single seat pilot had 150 - 200 hours under his belt (the last third usually in the "Harvard" trainer). At OTU you read the "Pilot's Notes", had a good look round, listened to a bit of advice from a QFI, hopped in and flew. (The Spitfire was a welcome change from the Harvard - it was said the the Spit "was a good lead-in to the Harvard". Simulators hadn't been thought of.
Thousands of lads made out all right then - but I admit the F-35 might be a bit of a handful ab initio !
Thousands of lads made out all right then - but I admit the F-35 might be a bit of a handful ab initio !
Whilst doing this he had a squiz at a new Mosquito parked nearby, and was then offered the Pilot's Notes and 'take it for a spin'. Which he duly accepted and put the type in his logbook, duly qualified on type!
Happy days
Thread Starter
A bit surprised that there are ab initios on the F-35 course given we must have quite a lot of Tornado drivers to re-role (unless they are leaving for pastures new of course). If an experienced QFI can see the issues......
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John Eacott (#23),
Better off than I with a Vultee Vengeance - there were just rudimentary controls in the back: a (detachable) stick, rudder bar and throttle, but nowt else. They put me in there; F/Sgt Reg Duncan (RCAF) got in front, took off, trimmed it and gave it to me to play with for 20 mins, then took it back and landed. Then I was a fully-fledged VV pilot !
I would say that was pushing his luck a bit. The Mossie had a reputation for "not suffering fools gladly".
Happy days, indeed !
...Dad arrived at his first Beaufighter NF squadron with about an hour on type, which was his 'check flight' with another pilot standing behind him...
...he had a squiz at a new Mosquito parked nearby, and was then offered the Pilot's Notes and 'take it for a spin'...
Happy days, indeed !
MOD did a bit of PR on the pilots who were going straight from Valley to the F35 a little while back; first names only for security reasons.
Thread Starter
Deliverance
[QUOTE=Deliverance;10222497]
I would be very surprised if it were true. There was much made of sim only prior to first flights for Typhoon, but I cannot think of anyone doing the rest of the OCU sim only. Refreshers don’t even do that.
It was an experiment to see if it was possible, and apparently this chap did it. It was a one off as I understand it.
It was an experiment to see if it was possible, and apparently this chap did it. It was a one off as I understand it.
I'm not a FJ pilot. Got 130 hours in the T38 and then flew heavies mil and civ. There is little similarity between old simulators and modern ones. The first landing an airline pilot makes in a new airplane is with paying passengers in the back. Fighting an airplane is certainly much more difficult than simply flying one, but with all the computers in an F35 I doubt that it is harder to fly. Of course pilots need real stick time, but a sim is a better place to learn the basics.
I have been retired for 10 years now, but it is interesting reading this line of thread.
I was reminded of a story of a meeting at CFS in the ‘50s. It was attended by representatives of the fighter world, to discuss the training of pilots for the new Lightning that was to enter service without (at that time) a 2 seat version.
There was a long winded discussion when Air Commodore Atcherley stood up and said that he had never heard so much rubbish in his life.
He was reported to have pointed out that in 1938, when the first Hurricanes arrived, they were told to fly round for the first few hours not retracting the flap, leaving the wheels down and the hood open, all to get the old timers used to the new monoplanes.
He said it was rubbish then and it is rubbish now. We will get these young men and give them a Lightning, just as we gave them Spitfires, and they will show us how to fly them. Meeting closed.
As for simulator flying. My conversion to the B757 (all be it as an experienced captain of BAC 1-11) in the early 1990’s consisted of about 40 hours sim, followed by a 15 min circuit. The next day, with a training captain in the right hand seat, I was loading passenger for a trip to Palma. The new hostie that brought us a cup of tea would not believe it was only my second go at landing the jet.
I was reminded of a story of a meeting at CFS in the ‘50s. It was attended by representatives of the fighter world, to discuss the training of pilots for the new Lightning that was to enter service without (at that time) a 2 seat version.
There was a long winded discussion when Air Commodore Atcherley stood up and said that he had never heard so much rubbish in his life.
He was reported to have pointed out that in 1938, when the first Hurricanes arrived, they were told to fly round for the first few hours not retracting the flap, leaving the wheels down and the hood open, all to get the old timers used to the new monoplanes.
He said it was rubbish then and it is rubbish now. We will get these young men and give them a Lightning, just as we gave them Spitfires, and they will show us how to fly them. Meeting closed.
As for simulator flying. My conversion to the B757 (all be it as an experienced captain of BAC 1-11) in the early 1990’s consisted of about 40 hours sim, followed by a 15 min circuit. The next day, with a training captain in the right hand seat, I was loading passenger for a trip to Palma. The new hostie that brought us a cup of tea would not believe it was only my second go at landing the jet.
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stairccase (#31),
Was it "Batchy" ? (sounds just like him).
Amen to that.
Was it "Batchy" ? (sounds just like him).
He said it was rubbish then and it is rubbish now. We will get these young men and give them a Lightning, just as we gave them Spitfires, and they will show us how to fly them. Meeting closed.
Gentleman Aviator
Many years ago I had an aged (10 years younger than I am now!) Spec Air Sqn Ldr (initials DH) working for me. Went through his logbooks when he retired to find some "dits" for his retirement do.
Like many of his generation, he started flying in late 40s early 50s on Meteors then Hunters (including a Meteor in the Coronation Flypast - 600+ aircraft, all UK based!). I noticed a small number of Sabre hours; mindful he had never been on a Sabre Sqn, asked the background.
DH: "That was an exchange visit with USAF in Germany - a proper exchange: we flew their jets and they flew ours"
Moi: "But there were no two-seaters .......???"
DH: "No, they helped us start it up leaning in the cockpit, and left us a kneepad with useful speeds and limits. Then we got airborne and 'mixed it' with them flying ours and us flying theirs ..........!!"
An' ye tell that to young folk today ...........
Like many of his generation, he started flying in late 40s early 50s on Meteors then Hunters (including a Meteor in the Coronation Flypast - 600+ aircraft, all UK based!). I noticed a small number of Sabre hours; mindful he had never been on a Sabre Sqn, asked the background.
DH: "That was an exchange visit with USAF in Germany - a proper exchange: we flew their jets and they flew ours"
Moi: "But there were no two-seaters .......???"
DH: "No, they helped us start it up leaning in the cockpit, and left us a kneepad with useful speeds and limits. Then we got airborne and 'mixed it' with them flying ours and us flying theirs ..........!!"
An' ye tell that to young folk today ...........
Danny,
I was told the story by an elderly member of my first squadron, when I was caught 'pontificating' after a good lunch. He did say that he, (my elderly member - got to be a joke there somewhere!) had been attending the CFS meeting as the CFS agent for his type of aeroplane, and that it was Batchy.
However, since the tale was second hand and told to me more than 40 years ago.........
I was told the story by an elderly member of my first squadron, when I was caught 'pontificating' after a good lunch. He did say that he, (my elderly member - got to be a joke there somewhere!) had been attending the CFS meeting as the CFS agent for his type of aeroplane, and that it was Batchy.
However, since the tale was second hand and told to me more than 40 years ago.........
Thread Starter
Many years ago I had an aged (10 years younger than I am now!) Spec Air Sqn Ldr (initials DH) working for me. Went through his logbooks when he retired to find some "dits" for his retirement do.
Like many of his generation, he started flying in late 40s early 50s on Meteors then Hunters (including a Meteor in the Coronation Flypast - 600+ aircraft, all UK based!). I noticed a small number of Sabre hours; mindful he had never been on a Sabre Sqn, asked the background.
DH: "That was an exchange visit with USAF in Germany - a proper exchange: we flew their jets and they flew ours"
Moi: "But there were no two-seaters .......???"
DH: "No, they helped us start it up leaning in the cockpit, and left us a kneepad with useful speeds and limits. Then we got airborne and 'mixed it' with them flying ours and us flying theirs ..........!!"
An' ye tell that to young folk today ...........
Like many of his generation, he started flying in late 40s early 50s on Meteors then Hunters (including a Meteor in the Coronation Flypast - 600+ aircraft, all UK based!). I noticed a small number of Sabre hours; mindful he had never been on a Sabre Sqn, asked the background.
DH: "That was an exchange visit with USAF in Germany - a proper exchange: we flew their jets and they flew ours"
Moi: "But there were no two-seaters .......???"
DH: "No, they helped us start it up leaning in the cockpit, and left us a kneepad with useful speeds and limits. Then we got airborne and 'mixed it' with them flying ours and us flying theirs ..........!!"
An' ye tell that to young folk today ...........
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staircase (#34),
"Batchy" (I reckon) would be an Air Commodore when he was appointed Commandant of the R.A.F. Flying College, Cranwell after the war. Retired as an Air Marshal 1959, RIP 1970. "More than 40 years ago" would fit.
Crossed his path in the '50s a couple of times: on the first occasion it was "Cap and gloves on - no chair/coffee/bikky. Next time was more amiable !
"They don't make 'em like that anymore", I'm afraid.
"Batchy" (I reckon) would be an Air Commodore when he was appointed Commandant of the R.A.F. Flying College, Cranwell after the war. Retired as an Air Marshal 1959, RIP 1970. "More than 40 years ago" would fit.
Crossed his path in the '50s a couple of times: on the first occasion it was "Cap and gloves on - no chair/coffee/bikky. Next time was more amiable !
"They don't make 'em like that anymore", I'm afraid.
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staircase,
'Arf a mo'! - "Batchy" was talking about the F-35 "Lightning" ???? First Flight of the
F-35 was not till 2006 [Wiki] - 36 years after he died ?
The only "Lightning" "Batchy" would know was the wartime US P-38 Lockheed "Lightning". Can't think of any others since till the F-35.
Crossed wires somewhere ?
'Arf a mo'! - "Batchy" was talking about the F-35 "Lightning" ???? First Flight of the
F-35 was not till 2006 [Wiki] - 36 years after he died ?
The only "Lightning" "Batchy" would know was the wartime US P-38 Lockheed "Lightning". Can't think of any others since till the F-35.
Crossed wires somewhere ?
English Electric Lightning, Danny42C!! First entered RAF service in 1959 and served for almost 30 years.
A mighty fine aircraft, as any WIWOL will be sure to tell you....
...over and over again!
A mighty fine aircraft, as any WIWOL will be sure to tell you....
...over and over again!
I always think that it would be an interesting start for a lecture to a group of pilots to ask them to put their hand up if they have ever flown a single seat aeroplane. Then you ask those who had prior training in a two-seat variant and/or a simulator to put their hand down, followed by asking those over age, say, 50 to put their hands down. There would not be many hands still raised.
As a graduation exercise at test pilots' school I wish that it was possible to give a student an Aircrew Manual or equivalent for a relatively simple single seat aircraft and then send them off to fly it. Sadly, we no longer train pilots to be able to fly like that.
As a graduation exercise at test pilots' school I wish that it was possible to give a student an Aircrew Manual or equivalent for a relatively simple single seat aircraft and then send them off to fly it. Sadly, we no longer train pilots to be able to fly like that.
English Electric Lightning, Danny42C!! First entered RAF service in 1959 and served for almost 30 years.
A mighty fine aircraft, as any WIWOL will be sure to tell you....
A mighty fine aircraft, as any WIWOL will be sure to tell you....
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BEagle (#38), and Minnie Burner (#41),
Oh, dear - worse than a "Short Term Memory Loss". Now I know for certain that I've finally "lost my marbles". Had to happen sometime, I suppose. ..........
Thanks for pointing it out so gently, BEags !
Oh, dear - worse than a "Short Term Memory Loss". Now I know for certain that I've finally "lost my marbles". Had to happen sometime, I suppose. ..........
Thanks for pointing it out so gently, BEags !
Last edited by Danny42C; 16th Aug 2018 at 12:34. Reason: Addition.