Phenom
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ME aircraft which require air-to-air refuelling in the receiver role have to be flown in close formation. Fewer types are so equipped these days, of course.
Teaching night close formation to new VC10 co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of traditional BFTS training was often quite demanding...
Teaching night close formation to new VC10 co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of traditional BFTS training was often quite demanding...
I'm surprised that F2/F3 night close formation was banned without NVGs. It was certainly included on the Bucc and F-4 OCUs. Rather easier on the F-4 as the formation references were more obvious.
Dominator2 , I certainly agree that
Pity the poor souls who're only getting 'ME' EFT these days. Around 65 hrs total, but only around 3 hrs solo.... No solo sector recce, no solo aeros, no solo PFLs - just a first solo, one circuit consol. trip...and a solo ML navex.
But what do we old dinosaurs know....
Dominator2 , I certainly agree that
ALL military pilots should be taught, and have the basic skills in ALL facets of "Military Aviation" of which formation is one.
But what do we old dinosaurs know....
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
BEagle,
Due to the poor external lighting provided by BAes and the variable geometry of the aircraft, the TPs decided that the references were not adequate for a "line pilot" to be able to formate safely!
There is no doubt that it was not as easy as the F4 but correctly taught it was viable. Obviously, on NVGs it became a regularly practiced discipline.
Due to the poor external lighting provided by BAes and the variable geometry of the aircraft, the TPs decided that the references were not adequate for a "line pilot" to be able to formate safely!
There is no doubt that it was not as easy as the F4 but correctly taught it was viable. Obviously, on NVGs it became a regularly practiced discipline.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: On the road side by a knackered old Ford.
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pity the poor souls who're only getting 'ME' EFT these days.:[/QUOTE]
Forgive my ignorance, but does that mean that students are being streamed before EFT? And if so, on what basis?
Forgive my ignorance, but does that mean that students are being streamed before EFT? And if so, on what basis?
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I well remember in RAFG prior to GW1 only 3 crews per Squadron were AAR qualified for the Goose Bay deployment Jets, too difficult apparently! Once the proverbial hit the fan, it was easy enough for everyone! I remember the relatively easy non NVG flying was night line astern close formation. You could see the ’red’ jetpipes easily enough, mind you, no one was shooting at you!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not really thread drift...
One of our clients has a collection of Porsche 911 Supercars. Each of them is a top of the range, in the era it was built.
The 70's car is his favourite, the 90's is the best looking, and the new one... he dismisses as "That's really just an Audi." when he talks about it. He tells me that the rest of the Porsche drivers in his club feel the same about them.
I wonder if the same can be said of the Pilots being produced by/for the RAF today.
In five years time, will the RAF still be the chosen supplier of aircrew for the rest of the worlds expanding air forces? Will it have become obvious to those who buy/rent such talent, that the foundations were weakened and the output, competent or not, is based on sand by comparison to how it was?
Older and very experienced Saudi pilots might see that the standard of guys arriving to teach their sons at Tabuk, are not of the same experience as they guys who did that job 20 or 30 years earlier.
I'm sure we all understand Bob's desire to keep quiet and smile; that's how you get paid. We also understand that the blame, and the solution, are on the desks of people in London.
Keeping quiet is not really helping anyone except Bob, and of course the folk cashing the cheques.
One of our clients has a collection of Porsche 911 Supercars. Each of them is a top of the range, in the era it was built.
The 70's car is his favourite, the 90's is the best looking, and the new one... he dismisses as "That's really just an Audi." when he talks about it. He tells me that the rest of the Porsche drivers in his club feel the same about them.
I wonder if the same can be said of the Pilots being produced by/for the RAF today.
In five years time, will the RAF still be the chosen supplier of aircrew for the rest of the worlds expanding air forces? Will it have become obvious to those who buy/rent such talent, that the foundations were weakened and the output, competent or not, is based on sand by comparison to how it was?
Older and very experienced Saudi pilots might see that the standard of guys arriving to teach their sons at Tabuk, are not of the same experience as they guys who did that job 20 or 30 years earlier.
I'm sure we all understand Bob's desire to keep quiet and smile; that's how you get paid. We also understand that the blame, and the solution, are on the desks of people in London.
Keeping quiet is not really helping anyone except Bob, and of course the folk cashing the cheques.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not implying anything. I'm stating that it's not in Bob's own interests to be saying that things are not good.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
May I stop any further thread drift now? This thread started with the problems with the Phenom and impact on ME pliot training.
Two questions:
First, what is the RAF doing to rectify the problems with it's ME pilot training. Clearly the MFTS solution will NOT produce either the required quality or numbers? Doing nothing is not an answr?
Secondly, when will the RAF accept that streaming too early and not teaching core Military Aviation flying skills to ALL pilots will never produce the quality of pilots required at all levels. If the RAF is to survive some of the poor decisions concerning Flying Training must be reverserd. Short Terminsm and finance must not be allowed to over-rule common sence and good practice.
Two questions:
First, what is the RAF doing to rectify the problems with it's ME pilot training. Clearly the MFTS solution will NOT produce either the required quality or numbers? Doing nothing is not an answr?
Secondly, when will the RAF accept that streaming too early and not teaching core Military Aviation flying skills to ALL pilots will never produce the quality of pilots required at all levels. If the RAF is to survive some of the poor decisions concerning Flying Training must be reverserd. Short Terminsm and finance must not be allowed to over-rule common sence and good practice.
This thread is in danger of getting a bit like a Volvo driver trying to convince a VW driver which car is best now!
Maybe Ascent/Affinity just got bored of all the opinions thrown at them and drew a name out of a hat.
Next up let’s all try to agree on the best fighter aircraft ever built.
BV
Maybe Ascent/Affinity just got bored of all the opinions thrown at them and drew a name out of a hat.
Next up let’s all try to agree on the best fighter aircraft ever built.
BV
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
Is anyone able to help?
What is the RAF doing to rectify the problems with it's ME pilot training. Clearly the MFTS solution will NOT produce either the required quality or numbers? Doing nothing is not an answer?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe what's needed is for a VSO to establish, say, an Urgent Operational Requirement, for MEFT and contract it out. A new company staffed by recently released QFIs, flying recently released aircraft. They could of course operate from somewhere that's quiet nowadays, like Cranwell perhaps.
Such a company would of course need to charge top end market rates, in order to pay the staff enough to tempt them back (away) from where they have settled. The attraction of flying without a blue suit / secondary duties and the prospect of not being posted, might appeal to enough of them.
I'm sure that would not be cheap, but it would be effective, in a very short timescale. Feed them just some of the hundreds of trainee Pilots already in the holding system, and things are looking up already.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Each time I see one of these threads telling me the new aircraft is always tech and not fit for purpose I can’t help thinking about the introduction of the Airbus A320 into British airways service, the cynics told us that the aircraft just a French joke and so unreliable that they would never be more than the original ( B Cal order ) of ten aircraft in British airways service.......................... That prediction went well !
You might be on to something there...
Maybe what's needed is for a VSO to establish, say, an Urgent Operational Requirement, for MEFT and contract it out. A new company staffed by recently released QFIs, flying recently released aircraft. They could of course operate from somewhere that's quiet nowadays, like Cranwell perhaps.
Such a company would of course need to charge top end market rates, in order to pay the staff enough to tempt them back (away) from where they have settled. The attraction of flying without a blue suit / secondary duties and the prospect of not being posted, might appeal to enough of them.
I'm sure that would not be cheap, but it would be effective, in a very short timescale. Feed them just some of the hundreds of trainee Pilots already in the holding system, and things are looking up already.
Maybe what's needed is for a VSO to establish, say, an Urgent Operational Requirement, for MEFT and contract it out. A new company staffed by recently released QFIs, flying recently released aircraft. They could of course operate from somewhere that's quiet nowadays, like Cranwell perhaps.
Such a company would of course need to charge top end market rates, in order to pay the staff enough to tempt them back (away) from where they have settled. The attraction of flying without a blue suit / secondary duties and the prospect of not being posted, might appeal to enough of them.
I'm sure that would not be cheap, but it would be effective, in a very short timescale. Feed them just some of the hundreds of trainee Pilots already in the holding system, and things are looking up already.
Indeed it’s not as if the principles of teaching anyone to fly a ME aircraft have changed significantly without an IT based underpinning overarching solution based paradigm changing solution that was contracted about 10 years ago and isn’t even slightly working for ME training
I find it quite incredible how a perfectly functioning system was dismantled without fully implemented replacement. That takes a level of serious ineptitude
Last edited by sangiovese.; 4th Aug 2018 at 16:59.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed it’s not as if the principles of teaching anyone to fly a ME aircraft have changed significantly without an IT based underpinning overarching solution based paradigm changing solution that was contracted about 10 years ago and isn’t even slightly working for ME training
I find it quite incredible how a perfectly functioning system was dismantled without fully implemented replacement. That takes a level of serious ineptitude
There's nothing in any of this that makes me think it was an accident. What we had was swapped for a great spending of money with other people, and by design, not carelessness.
As I understand it, the contract to run on King Air was expensive and it was cheaper and less risky to use a high-quality commercial training provider for multi-engine training. Especially the extra pilots needed now following the expansion of aircraft numbers under SDSR15. So a competitive was run and L3 won. The plan is to do EFT and then an enhanced lead in course doing more close formation and low level before going to the commercial school. Now seeing as L3 have Boeing and Airbus sims for MCC then the graduates of this program could actually be a better product for Voyager and P8 (and Wedgetail if we buy it). All announced here: https://www.pilotcareernews.com/l3-t...or-raf-pilots/
Oh, and I suspect it is a lot cheaper than running a small bespoke outfit of ex QFIs with some airframes at a MOD airfield as a top up to MEPT on UKMFTS as has been suggested above. Using the capacity in L3’s extant global training system is far better and likely much cheaper.
This course will run in parallel with current UKMFTS MEPT offering the extra numbers of pilots needed for the extra demand of SDSR15.
L3 Commercial Aviation has been selected by the Royal Air Force (RAF) to support the training of future RAF multi-engine pilots in a three-year contract.
L3 will provide a bespoke training course for approximately 100 trainee pilots.
Trainees will undertake a course similar to a Commercial Pilot License (CPL) with Instrument Rating (IR) as well as the Multi-Crew Cooperation (MCC) course to supplement the RAF’s own training.
“This agreement showcases our ability to offer tailored, cost-effective solutions to meet existing and new customers’ bespoke training requirements. We look forward to working with the RAF for many years and welcoming their pilots to our U.K. training facilities,” said Robin Glover-Faure, President of Commercial Training Solutions, which is part of L3 Commercial Aviation.
Group Captain David Catlow, from the RAF Directorate of Flying Training, added, “This agreement with L3 will help us to deliver more world-class pilots to our operational front line in the timescales we require.”
The trainee pilots will start with Officer Training and Elementary Flying Training with the RAF, then carry out the tailored course on multi-engine aircraft before progressing to the MCC course using L3’s flight simulators. The first class of students will begin training with L3 in August 2018.
L3 will provide a bespoke training course for approximately 100 trainee pilots.
Trainees will undertake a course similar to a Commercial Pilot License (CPL) with Instrument Rating (IR) as well as the Multi-Crew Cooperation (MCC) course to supplement the RAF’s own training.
“This agreement showcases our ability to offer tailored, cost-effective solutions to meet existing and new customers’ bespoke training requirements. We look forward to working with the RAF for many years and welcoming their pilots to our U.K. training facilities,” said Robin Glover-Faure, President of Commercial Training Solutions, which is part of L3 Commercial Aviation.
Group Captain David Catlow, from the RAF Directorate of Flying Training, added, “This agreement with L3 will help us to deliver more world-class pilots to our operational front line in the timescales we require.”
The trainee pilots will start with Officer Training and Elementary Flying Training with the RAF, then carry out the tailored course on multi-engine aircraft before progressing to the MCC course using L3’s flight simulators. The first class of students will begin training with L3 in August 2018.
This course will run in parallel with current UKMFTS MEPT offering the extra numbers of pilots needed for the extra demand of SDSR15.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,923
Received 2,844 Likes
on
1,215 Posts
Do they do formation flying?
Remember the Station sign changed to training pilots for them, how true it's becoming.
Remember the Station sign changed to training pilots for them, how true it's becoming.