Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

ARNHEM LANDING - NEW BOOK

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

ARNHEM LANDING - NEW BOOK

Old 20th Jul 2018, 05:18
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: THE BLUEBIRD CAFE
Posts: 56
ARNHEM LANDING - NEW BOOK

Arnhem: the battle for the bridges, 1944

Antony Beevor Operation Market Garden, the plan to end the war by capturing the bridges leading to the Lower Rhine and beyond, was a bold concept. But could it ever have worked? The cost of failure was horrendous, above all for the Dutch, who risked everything to help. The latest publication from this renowned historian, Antony Beevor examines much more than a single battle and looks into the very heart of war. Soft cover, 496 pages. $34.99
Fantome is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 09:40
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South of the M4
Posts: 1,498
Fantome

"Arnhem" has been out for a couple of months and reviewers have given very positive reviews of this description of a very British heroic failure.

I've got two of Beevor's earlier WW2 books "Stalingrad" and "Berlin" both of which are cracking reads. "Arnhem" is on my shopping list.

WT
Warmtoast is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 09:40
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: France
Age: 75
Posts: 6,311
About half way through, a very good read IMHO, but substantially cheaper on UK S American river and in hardback
Wander00 is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 16:25
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Argentina
Age: 43
Posts: 49
It is an improvement over the classic "A Bridge Too Far" ( Cornelius Ryan)? Thanks,
Marcantilan is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 16:32
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,086
It really WAS a mad-arsed scheme wasn't it...................

Unfortunately a lot of brave men died there
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 16:51
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: over the rainbow
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Folklore is that Roy Urquhart was so incensed by the losses to the Parachute Regiment of some 8000, on returning to the UK he physically assaulted Boy Browning. who was blamed for implementing Montgomery's hare brained idea.

But since Churchill was up for anything which demonstrated British resolve to Stalin, who had accused the British of cowardice, no-one was cashiered .
roving is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 17:04
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Just outside Newbury
Age: 51
Posts: 243
Churchill was in Canada whilst this was going on. Given the complete lack of options regarding crossing the Rhine and NOW fully aware of the G2 picture, the ground was bolleaux but when it’s all you’be got you deal with it. I still believe the rough concept was right, it was a case of poor effects’ positioning and phasing.
Maxibon is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 17:11
  #8 (permalink)  
aceatco, retired
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: one airshow or another
Posts: 1,430
I have this as an audiobook, 14 hours of listening. Excellent for long journeys in the car. I like Antony Beevoir's stuff.
vintage ATCO is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 17:51
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,016
I am about halfway through Arnhem, having read all of Antony Beevor’s other books. I found Stalingrad and Berlin the most interesting probably as I was less familiar with these battles than the others he narrates. Arnhem has so far failed to really catch my imagination, possibly because it was still being covered when I went through training and the fact that I knew a number of people who had fought in the battle. So to me it had more immediacy than say GW1 or Corporate would have to today’s trainees. I also have the feeling that Beevor; and Max Hastings; are running out of new material. Both are at their best when writing of campaigns and battles that encompass a broad sweep of action and are essentially strategic rather than tactical events. It is difficult for me to see where either might go from here.

Strangely, Beevor’s book that appealed to me least was was his first, about the Spanish Civil War, but his style developed rapidly afterwards. If you seek something different then I recommend The War That Never Was by David Pryce-Jones. Written in the years immediately following the break up of the Soviet Union it provides a rare insight to a remarkable period in European history.

YS
Yellow Sun is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2018, 02:17
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: the far south
Posts: 342
Read his Normandy one and it left me cold.

I think Hastings and Keegan are much better
typerated is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2018, 04:03
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: london
Posts: 517
I haven't read the book, but it is well known that Major Brian Urquhart ( now Sir Brian Urquhart) tried to get Browning to amend the plan, inlight of information regarding German troop build up. Browning had him removed on medical grounds. Urquhart is still alive and nearly a centurion! I could never understand why the RAF and Typhoons in particular didn't not deal with the German armour as they had done in Normandy.
rolling20 is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2018, 06:47
  #12 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,569
Remember Horrocks? His TV presentations were superb and as a commander trying to get through he really could narrate the story.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2018, 07:40
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,318
As long as the subject is Market Garden, here is a little brain tease for you:
What if Patton had been in charge instead of Monty?
Having read several books on the subject - I really have little interest in reading another. Further, I find it hard to believe it could be significantly better than Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far" (I have an autographed first edition).
tdracer is online now  
Old 21st Jul 2018, 16:37
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 411
Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
As long as the subject is Market Garden, here is a little brain tease for you:
What if Patton had been in charge instead of Monty?
Having read several books on the subject - I really have little interest in reading another. Further, I find it hard to believe it could be significantly better than Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far" (I have an autographed first edition).
Like you I have read most of the books on Market Garden, this latest book provides a different perspective on it and is thoroughly enjoyable. The German point of view is better presented than A Bridge Too Far, for example. Your brain teaser is partially addressed in the book, although not Patton, Bedell Smith is quoted as saying he doubted XXX Corp could get up there but ours (US) might have. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
chinook240 is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 07:57
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: sussex
Posts: 1,589
Many moons ago I studied 'Market Garden' in some depth. My main impression was that the concept ignored the basic military truism 'no plan of attack survives contact with the enemy'. It appeared to me that everything had to go right for it to have even a slim chance of success. This was doubly so given the intelligence failures. IMHO I doubt that Patton in all his fury could have got the tanks up what was effectively a single road.
ancientaviator62 is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 16:09
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,835
Beevor tends to tell a story rather than simply list a sequence of events. His dislike of Montgomery is palpable.
beamer is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 19:27
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 1,244
Um, no mention of my own book about Arnhem!

The way the British military establishment treated Sosabowski is nothing short of a national disgrace. The way we behaved towards the commander of 1st Polish Armoured Division, was only moderately better. How can officers who have commanded major operational units be relegated to working in a toolroom store or a second rate Scottish hotel - even Wojtech the Polish Army bear, which was kept at Edinburgh Zoo for the remainder of his life, was better treated.

Old Duffer
Old-Duffer is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 20:00
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,086
Originally Posted by beamer View Post
Beevor tends to tell a story rather than simply list a sequence of events. His dislike of Montgomery is palpable.
He wasn't a very likeable person ................... pretty effective in the W Desert but he arrived just as the decent kit started to arrive in bulk - after that he was a NATIONAL HERO when in fact he was a bit second rate TBH. His Normandy campaign was not a great success and he was bailed out by the Yanks breakout.
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 20:24
  #19 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,569
Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
He wasn't a very likeable person .......His Normandy campaign was not a great success and he was bailed out by the Yanks breakout.
I read only recently that a countervailing view was that the British and Canadian left pinned the bulk of the German Army allowing the American breakout to close the Falaise Pocket.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 02:52
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 41
I read only recently that a countervailing view was that the British and Canadian left pinned the bulk of the German Army allowing the American breakout to close the Falaise Pocket.
That was always Monty's plan which had been agreed to by Eisenhower. The Brits and Canadians were the numerically dominant force at the start of D-Day and took on the strongest German formations around Caen. The Americans had to build their forces up and by the time of Operation Cobra were the largest force. Post war when the memoirs were published was when the Americans disparaged Monty's plan. It didn't help that Monty had annoyed everyone with his personality. His press conference after the Battle of the Bulge was his personal "bridge too far" as far as the Americans were concerned.

As for Arnhem Monty, had always argued for the strong single thrust to break into Germany and the Market-Garden plan was the result. Once again a plan that was approved by Eisenhower. What is fascinating about the battle are the number of what ifs that could have made it successful. One aspect often overlooked is the American's 82nd Airborne failure to take the Nijmegen bridge when they could have instead of focusing on the Groesbeck Heights.

Anyway Anton Beevor is a very readable author of history. Another author is James Holland, who also is not a big fan of Montgomery.
Lookleft is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.