Death of an Air Force?
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Death of an Air Force?
Seven months after the RNZAF lost its air combar squadrons of A-4K Skyhawks, New Zealand is poised to vote in a new goverment.
Defence per se has been conspicuous by its absence in the past few weeks of political debate.
So far as the RNZAF is concerned, for a couple of days recently it lacked a single operational transport, all the ancient Hercules and the two elderly 727s were grounded for various reasons.
Considerable sums are needed to update or replace the Hercules and 727 and Iroquois ... helo training is still performed with the obsolete Sioux!
The P-3 Orions need new comms and nav equipment, if only to meet ATC standards ...
Much could be done with the application of a relatively few dollars, such as might occur by increasing defence spending from around one percent of GDP to one point five or even two percent ...
However, latest polling suggests Labour will again be the biggest party and their leader is not known for smiling upon warriors or their weapons.
True, NZ is a long way away, and of course it could not, would not happen to the home of airpower in Gt Britain ...
Defence per se has been conspicuous by its absence in the past few weeks of political debate.
So far as the RNZAF is concerned, for a couple of days recently it lacked a single operational transport, all the ancient Hercules and the two elderly 727s were grounded for various reasons.
Considerable sums are needed to update or replace the Hercules and 727 and Iroquois ... helo training is still performed with the obsolete Sioux!
The P-3 Orions need new comms and nav equipment, if only to meet ATC standards ...
Much could be done with the application of a relatively few dollars, such as might occur by increasing defence spending from around one percent of GDP to one point five or even two percent ...
However, latest polling suggests Labour will again be the biggest party and their leader is not known for smiling upon warriors or their weapons.
True, NZ is a long way away, and of course it could not, would not happen to the home of airpower in Gt Britain ...
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Did anyone see the report of a coupla months ago regarding the New Zealand Navy's requirement for a fast jet to overfly their vessels on exercise?
The airforce had nothing, having retired their A-4's and Macchis, so a private warbird operator was contracted in to use his fast jet!!!
.........I just hope that Hoon's not reading this...............
might give him some ideas!
The airforce had nothing, having retired their A-4's and Macchis, so a private warbird operator was contracted in to use his fast jet!!!
.........I just hope that Hoon's not reading this...............
might give him some ideas!
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Foxed Moth
All is not yet lost.
I wouldn't bet the farm on Helen Clark getting things entirely the way she might have taken for granted tomorrow night.
Even if she does get an initial nod, which is a long way from being as guaranteed as the (cough) impartial media would have us believe, there are dark and sinister things in the lady's past which are about to come home to roost.
That aside, without wanting to jinx anything, behind the polls is a strong indication that NZ is following the world-wide trend back to the right of the political spectrum.
In 24 hours we will know.
Nopax
It's true; in order to calibrate systems on board HMNZS Te Mana and HMNZS Canterbury, the RNZN was forced to call for help from the Warbirds Association, who assembled a Hawker Hunter, a Fouga Magister, and a Cessna A-37 Dragonfly, all privately owned, and operated by airline pilots, to fly "combat sorties" against the Navy's frigates.
This was after our esteemed lady (?) PM had declared that New Zealand lived in a "Benign Strategic Environment" (initials BSE - you make the connection) and thus did not need FJ aircraft which were "expensive toys for boys", as we're apparently better off spending the money on finding new classes of people to put on the dole, and so on.
Goodness but we do live in interesting times.
I'm sure the hearts and minds of the world's Military Aircrew will be with those New Zealand voters who still have some sanity, as we go to the polls tomorrow - Sat July 27th.
Broadcast over. Thank you!
All is not yet lost.
I wouldn't bet the farm on Helen Clark getting things entirely the way she might have taken for granted tomorrow night.
Even if she does get an initial nod, which is a long way from being as guaranteed as the (cough) impartial media would have us believe, there are dark and sinister things in the lady's past which are about to come home to roost.
That aside, without wanting to jinx anything, behind the polls is a strong indication that NZ is following the world-wide trend back to the right of the political spectrum.
In 24 hours we will know.
Nopax
It's true; in order to calibrate systems on board HMNZS Te Mana and HMNZS Canterbury, the RNZN was forced to call for help from the Warbirds Association, who assembled a Hawker Hunter, a Fouga Magister, and a Cessna A-37 Dragonfly, all privately owned, and operated by airline pilots, to fly "combat sorties" against the Navy's frigates.
This was after our esteemed lady (?) PM had declared that New Zealand lived in a "Benign Strategic Environment" (initials BSE - you make the connection) and thus did not need FJ aircraft which were "expensive toys for boys", as we're apparently better off spending the money on finding new classes of people to put on the dole, and so on.
Goodness but we do live in interesting times.
I'm sure the hearts and minds of the world's Military Aircrew will be with those New Zealand voters who still have some sanity, as we go to the polls tomorrow - Sat July 27th.
Broadcast over. Thank you!
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You can imagine the conversation
ATC " Unknown aircraft, you are entering New Zealand Airspace, please identify"
Bogey " **** Off!"
ATC " Unidentified aircraft, you are in restricted New Zealand airspace. Identify yourself immediately else we will be forced to take action. "
Bogey " How, exactly?"
ATC ............................................."er, Carry on, and have a nice day"
ATC " Unknown aircraft, you are entering New Zealand Airspace, please identify"
Bogey " **** Off!"
ATC " Unidentified aircraft, you are in restricted New Zealand airspace. Identify yourself immediately else we will be forced to take action. "
Bogey " How, exactly?"
ATC ............................................."er, Carry on, and have a nice day"
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 27th Jul 2002 at 11:53.
BlueWolf
All the best for beating the pinko b@satards.
Sadly I think defence is unlikely to ever be a major issue in a general election these, anywhere. Maybe its a sign of the times, maybe its the media's fault, but people are more interested in whether a politician cares about a soap opera or what stupid thing some moron who has managed to become a sports "hero" (oxymoron in most cases) has to say.
You are of course aware that on signing up to PPRuNe you agreed not to use obscenities. Keep your mouth clean, or you'll find somewhere else that will be running you out of the gate in double quick time !!!!
Edited by PPRuNe Radar to remove a reported obscenity
All the best for beating the pinko b@satards.
Sadly I think defence is unlikely to ever be a major issue in a general election these, anywhere. Maybe its a sign of the times, maybe its the media's fault, but people are more interested in whether a politician cares about a soap opera or what stupid thing some moron who has managed to become a sports "hero" (oxymoron in most cases) has to say.
You are of course aware that on signing up to PPRuNe you agreed not to use obscenities. Keep your mouth clean, or you'll find somewhere else that will be running you out of the gate in double quick time !!!!
Edited by PPRuNe Radar to remove a reported obscenity
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 27th Jul 2002 at 11:52.
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Thank you Mr Radar, WE BF is a pain.
On the Thread......, well, the Kiwis will at least be remembered as some nice chaps what ever happens.
Hope the lads at Colt [and elsewhere] are having a good time.
On the Thread......, well, the Kiwis will at least be remembered as some nice chaps what ever happens.
Hope the lads at Colt [and elsewhere] are having a good time.
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I Suggest you have a look at this http://defair/airforce/, and the reason I suggest it is purely and simply an alternative view, and no, I didn't write it as was suggested elswhere, and no, I don't necessarily believe everything I read, but yes, I do not think the RNZAF is dead just yet, and yes I know NZ has cut Defence expenditure in half over the last ten years, and yes I know we have a Dragon Lady running the country who is more than a match for Tony B in deception, and yes, finally, how many people appreciate that despite having a population less than that of Sydney, New Zealand has boxed above it's weight since we were the first to fly?
Wasn't it Mark Twain who said reports of his death were premature?
Wasn't it Mark Twain who said reports of his death were premature?
Last edited by Samuel; 28th Jul 2002 at 05:09.
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the kiwis
it is a fact that new zealand has no threat at present. i was talking to a kiwi army captain whilst in the former yugoslavia in 95. he said that if it hadnt been for the kiwi company serving in bosnia it was highly likely that all 3 new zealand services would either have been disbanded or reduced to the status of an armed police force.
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Having no discernible threat at present doesn't mean you're safe for ever - once you lower your defences I'm sure threats will present themselves - this has been true ever since the people in Jericho thought there was no point squandering money on decent walls!
By the way, Samuel, I can't get that link to work - are you sure you have typed it right?
By the way, Samuel, I can't get that link to work - are you sure you have typed it right?
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The Perceived Threat....
No threat eh???? Well a very poor understanding by any individual whom beleives this, also showing a general lack of understanding in regional politics and more importantly the exploitation of Australian and NZ natural resources, primariliy in the fishing industry. The Asian fishing industry has basically collapsed and the only way to sutsain a living is to go and pilfer neighbouring countries ie. OZ and NZ who have a very healthy and well managed fishing industry. And of course all the neighbouring countries around Oz and NZ politically are so stable aren't they.......not!!!!!!! (examples for those not familiar, Fiji, East Timor, Papua New Guinea.....blah blah blah)
Before the dibandment of the Air Attack Force in NZ, the A4, whilst not common knowledge to most, was actively utilized in stopping a vessel (with the use of his snarly cannon I might add!) which had been illegally operating in NZ waters. This but one occassion of a few, and probably countless others over the years involving the P3 maritime patrol assets.
At the very least in Australian and NZ defense intrests it is so important that a credible, if not a very potent, maritime patrol and strike capability be maintained in the Austrlalian and New Zealand waters, the make-up of which has to comprise the venerable P3 "type" platform and a pointy striker of the F111 "type" performance and capability.....!!!!! This without any doubt will also have to be supplemented by an efficient, modern sea based naval capability.
Complacency will mean economic and political ruin and.....military embarressment.
PS Sorry about the recent election results NZ, still could be worse, could be having to live there putting up with it!
:o
Before the dibandment of the Air Attack Force in NZ, the A4, whilst not common knowledge to most, was actively utilized in stopping a vessel (with the use of his snarly cannon I might add!) which had been illegally operating in NZ waters. This but one occassion of a few, and probably countless others over the years involving the P3 maritime patrol assets.
At the very least in Australian and NZ defense intrests it is so important that a credible, if not a very potent, maritime patrol and strike capability be maintained in the Austrlalian and New Zealand waters, the make-up of which has to comprise the venerable P3 "type" platform and a pointy striker of the F111 "type" performance and capability.....!!!!! This without any doubt will also have to be supplemented by an efficient, modern sea based naval capability.
Complacency will mean economic and political ruin and.....military embarressment.
PS Sorry about the recent election results NZ, still could be worse, could be having to live there putting up with it!
:o
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Sorry TB, that link is apparently an internal one! However, what it says is everything is going to be replaced, or upgraded starting with the 727's which are actually quite old, though not as old as the VC10! They were purchased from Boeing, but were ex-United. Everything else from the Iroquois to the P3 is to be upgraded, or replaced. The Iroquois might be replaced, the Hercs almost certainly will be upgraded rather than swapped for the J, and the P3/Herc will receive upgraded nav/ comms. The King Airs used for Multi Engine are of course leased, as are the Airtrainers
No part of the programme involves re-winging any pigs, or teaching them to fly! Apparently!
No part of the programme involves re-winging any pigs, or teaching them to fly! Apparently!
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I've just received my pre-publication copy pf Ross Ewing's book, Topped Gun ISBN 0-473-08560-7 which cover the sorry saga of the flawed politics of Helen.
It's excellent, and includes a full list of every pilot who flew them, including four RAF exchange. I thought therev had been more than that. Anyone want to know who they were?
It's excellent, and includes a full list of every pilot who flew them, including four RAF exchange. I thought therev had been more than that. Anyone want to know who they were?
Lupus Domesticus
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The link below will take you to an article which is quite a long read, but explains in clear and simple language precisely why it is that the RNZAF strike wing needed to be retained (for those unable to recognise the self-evidence of this truth) and also how easily discernable is the very real and immediate threat.
http://www.soscampaign.co.nz/?E6DE3E...B-B353A77CE206
Fox3, TicketyBoo, well said...Samuel, do I know you?
http://www.soscampaign.co.nz/?E6DE3E...B-B353A77CE206
Fox3, TicketyBoo, well said...Samuel, do I know you?
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It's laughable.
At least it would be, if it wasn't so upsetting to the Kiwi contingent, and with great justification.
OK, so the A4's are mothballed, can't they be bought, and leased back to the Air Force, if cashflow is a problem?
Can't other fast jet/trainer capable aircraft be got on board, using the same technique? We have a lot of Hawks knocking around, and I hear we have some SHARS coming up, which I feel, would be ideal for NZ's defence needs.
OK, so right now, NZ hasn't got a credible threat, but that can all change tomorrow.
How long has this bint got left in charge, and can't you find any photos of her, a large amount of drugs and a goat?
At least it would be, if it wasn't so upsetting to the Kiwi contingent, and with great justification.
OK, so the A4's are mothballed, can't they be bought, and leased back to the Air Force, if cashflow is a problem?
Can't other fast jet/trainer capable aircraft be got on board, using the same technique? We have a lot of Hawks knocking around, and I hear we have some SHARS coming up, which I feel, would be ideal for NZ's defence needs.
OK, so right now, NZ hasn't got a credible threat, but that can all change tomorrow.
How long has this bint got left in charge, and can't you find any photos of her, a large amount of drugs and a goat?
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Hiring Civvies to play the bad guys is nothing new.
Falcons out of Teeside?
There is an A4 and a Hunter from an American company on the pan outside that here to play agressors to F18s.
(The company also owns Migs, Sea Harriers etc and is trying to buy Mig29s and F16s)
The founders of this company never flew military jets!! good job if you can get it.
I do agree that losing the A4s was a mistake.
RAF gained a few pilots though.
Falcons out of Teeside?
There is an A4 and a Hunter from an American company on the pan outside that here to play agressors to F18s.
(The company also owns Migs, Sea Harriers etc and is trying to buy Mig29s and F16s)
The founders of this company never flew military jets!! good job if you can get it.
I do agree that losing the A4s was a mistake.
RAF gained a few pilots though.
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Seems to me that the reasoning behind all of the down-grading is quite simple. Why fork out all the cash when big brother (Australia) will come and fight the bullies for you?
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Solotk, the A4's [which, incidentally, had a comprehensive electronic fit which made them equivalent to F16 C/D] are currently awaiting sale, probably to Canada. Now that Helengrad has another three years in office, that sale will certainly go ahead. Besides, the infrastructure of the squadrons has gone, the RAF has some of the pilots, as has the RAAF, and the groundcrews have also gone, many to the RAAF.
The policy is seriously flawed and totally fails to appreciate the fact of Defence Policy serving foreign policy and trade.Isolationism is not an option for either Australia or New Zealand.
How much damage has she done? Well, the RAF is but a shadow of what it once was, and squadrons have disappeared by the dozen,but Helen has removed the whole reason for having an air force, despite all the morale boosting currently going on.
Blue Wolf; possibly! I was a fairly outspoken Sqn Ldr, though I suspect a bit before you. I've been 'out' for a while but have been fairly vocal in voicing my disapproval!Never could suffer fools gladly, and that was recorded every year!
The policy is seriously flawed and totally fails to appreciate the fact of Defence Policy serving foreign policy and trade.Isolationism is not an option for either Australia or New Zealand.
How much damage has she done? Well, the RAF is but a shadow of what it once was, and squadrons have disappeared by the dozen,but Helen has removed the whole reason for having an air force, despite all the morale boosting currently going on.
Blue Wolf; possibly! I was a fairly outspoken Sqn Ldr, though I suspect a bit before you. I've been 'out' for a while but have been fairly vocal in voicing my disapproval!Never could suffer fools gladly, and that was recorded every year!
Last edited by Samuel; 29th Jul 2002 at 19:02.