RAF Start Talks on E-3D Replacement
Sentinel probe was indeed deleted due to weight issues. Operation 'Weight Watchers' was a major last-ditch part of the program to get Sentinel down to a flyable weight. Safety systems were deleted, military kit deleted, kit redesigned to save the odd kg here and there, wiring gauge limits pushed, crew facilities reduced, equipment rack strength reduced, crash and ditch structure abandoned, safe separation limits ignored and even the whole internal cabin liner was binned - the aircraft still flies with 'single use transit trim' with multiple efforts trying to keep it attached to the interior and not falling across the crew or (god forbid) exit doors.
Which safety systems and military kit were deleted? Likewise what crash and ditch structure?
There never was a cabin liner - they were all hand stitched by an old dear in Greeneville as I recall, and the cockpit trim was because the person ordering it was presented with a standard set of options for a Global and asked ‘well what does it come with, we’ll have that!’ Neither anything to do with weight!
It is still so shabby because since the first SDSR in 2010 the axe has been hovering over Sentinel and no money made available..
I sat next between the designer of the probe and the original RAF TP, both were adamant the probe was designed, viable and doable, it was only deleted to save the money and because the small crew could not sustain extended missions.
The Globaleye is probably less capable than the wedgetail (only 7 mission crew) but is also probably cheaper, and already assembled in the U.K.....hmmm...
There never was a cabin liner - they were all hand stitched by an old dear in Greeneville as I recall, and the cockpit trim was because the person ordering it was presented with a standard set of options for a Global and asked ‘well what does it come with, we’ll have that!’ Neither anything to do with weight!
It is still so shabby because since the first SDSR in 2010 the axe has been hovering over Sentinel and no money made available..
I sat next between the designer of the probe and the original RAF TP, both were adamant the probe was designed, viable and doable, it was only deleted to save the money and because the small crew could not sustain extended missions.
The Globaleye is probably less capable than the wedgetail (only 7 mission crew) but is also probably cheaper, and already assembled in the U.K.....hmmm...
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I can't see the MoD going for an Airbus concept in any shape or form (eagles news)The development cost and time needed to get it to where we would need it to be would be surely massive.
Last edited by Bola1; 4th Sep 2018 at 09:32.
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I think someone needs to explain t9 the defence committee that, with its present size and possible number of orders, the RAF is no longer in the market to either request or afford bespoke solutions. The R&D costs alone could exceed the entire purchase price of a COTS solution.
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I think someone needs to explain t9 the defence committee that, with its present size and possible number of orders, the RAF is no longer in the market to either request or afford bespoke solutions. The R&D costs alone could exceed the entire purchase price of a COTS solution.
If you disregard trained officer qualities, ruling out a pilot on the grounds that they are only 'some helicopter corporal' is simply snobbery (Boscombe chap). There are many highly professional ex-AAC pilots out there flying with valid ATPLs, fixed wing and rotary - if they are good enough for command of an A320, the same should be true for Sentinel. When this was being discussed in MOD, the arguments hinged on undermining the RAF's all-commissioned pilot policy and the presentational aspects of entrusting a £150M of scarce combat asset to an NCO regardless of his or her competence. At the time, the Army was pushing to have the OC 5 Sqn job rotate between the RAF and the Int Corps; in the pre-Haddon Cave era, it was pointed out that the Int Corps officer would not have the requisite skills or experience to supervise a complex flying operation. SQEP they were not! ISTR it was all mixed in with the horse-trading that saw the Army given ownership of D4K.
Very true, however the bottom line is that an AAC pilot would need a significant amount of re-training to move to a multi-fixed wing type - you may as well take an ab-initio from 45. Even the AAC ex-Islander pilot on a ground role on 5 was happy to admit that!
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https://uk.reuters.com/article/britain-arms-boeing/uk-nears-decision-to-buy-boeing-awacs-planes-sources-idUKL8N1U86B
UK nears decision to buy Boeing AWACS planes
LONDON/PARIS, July 12 (Reuters) - Britain’s government is nearing a decision to buy four to six surveillance planes built by U.S. aerospace giant Boeing, sources familiar with the plans said on Thursday - a move that could stir a growing debate over UK and European defence jobs.
The contract to replace its six ageing E-3D Sentry airborne early warning (AWACS) planes with a fleet of Boeing E-7 Wedgetail jets would, if confirmed, be worth over $1 billion.
But the decision, which could be announced in coming weeks, is likely to anger some U.K. lawmakers who have called for a full competition, and may also spark formal protests by European defence companies keen for the business.
Airbus, which is said to be teaming up with Sweden’s Saab to offer an alternative, is anxious to try to prevent the deal being awarded without a competition and does not rule out mounting a legal challenge, a person close to the matter said.
A spokesman for Britain’s defence ministry said, “We tender contracts competitively wherever appropriate. It is too early to comment further at this time.”
UK nears decision to buy Boeing AWACS planes
LONDON/PARIS, July 12 (Reuters) - Britain’s government is nearing a decision to buy four to six surveillance planes built by U.S. aerospace giant Boeing, sources familiar with the plans said on Thursday - a move that could stir a growing debate over UK and European defence jobs.
The contract to replace its six ageing E-3D Sentry airborne early warning (AWACS) planes with a fleet of Boeing E-7 Wedgetail jets would, if confirmed, be worth over $1 billion.
But the decision, which could be announced in coming weeks, is likely to anger some U.K. lawmakers who have called for a full competition, and may also spark formal protests by European defence companies keen for the business.
Airbus, which is said to be teaming up with Sweden’s Saab to offer an alternative, is anxious to try to prevent the deal being awarded without a competition and does not rule out mounting a legal challenge, a person close to the matter said.
A spokesman for Britain’s defence ministry said, “We tender contracts competitively wherever appropriate. It is too early to comment further at this time.”
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Airbus, which is said to be teaming up with Sweden’s Saab to offer an alternative
I believe the bill to Boeing over KC-47 delays and problems is now over $3B (yes, that’s billions), but at least they hope to claw that back over a production run of 180-500 aircraft, depending on KC-X and KC-Y procurement decisions.
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More fools they - and serves them right for attempting to collude with one side of an internal UK argument over brexit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...rexit-warning/
Airbus fury over loss of RAF deal after Brexit warning
Airbus bosses are furious after the Government spurred them to publish a dire forecast of the impact of Brexit before handing a prize £2bn RAF contract to US rival Boeing without a competition.
The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit....... Sources close to Airbus said the company decided to warn about the future of as many as 15,000 of its UK employees and 110,000 in its supply chain after discussions with the Government. It is understood the ministers argued that industry should speak out on the highly contentious issue and aimed to create what insiders described as “room for manoeuvre” at Chequers. The warning from Airbus allowed Mrs May and her officials to present to the Cabinet a more robust assessment of business disruption a hard or no-deal Brexit could cause and argue for Britain to make more concessions to the EU.
But having “got them out of trouble”, the source said Airbus is now furious with the Government.
It has emerged in defence circles that the Ministry of Defence has all but finalised a £2bn deal to buy E-7 “Wedgetail” early warning jets from its bitter rival Boeing. The aircraft will take over from the RAF’s fleet of worn-out E-3 “Sentry” jets, which were also built by the US company. Airbus and other aerospace companies have been lobbying for the contract to be awarded on the basis of open bidding, rather than handed to Boeing.
The prospect of no competition and “buying off the shelf” from Boeing, which is unlikely to involve UK companies in the contract, has left Airbus “incandescent”, sources said. Alex Ashbourne-Walmsley of defence think-tank RUSI said: “I’m surprised that the British Government could behave in such a cavalier fashion towards Airbus when the company helped them apply pressure on Brexiteers and now in return it faces issuing humiliated......
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...rexit-warning/
Airbus fury over loss of RAF deal after Brexit warning
Airbus bosses are furious after the Government spurred them to publish a dire forecast of the impact of Brexit before handing a prize £2bn RAF contract to US rival Boeing without a competition.
The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit....... Sources close to Airbus said the company decided to warn about the future of as many as 15,000 of its UK employees and 110,000 in its supply chain after discussions with the Government. It is understood the ministers argued that industry should speak out on the highly contentious issue and aimed to create what insiders described as “room for manoeuvre” at Chequers. The warning from Airbus allowed Mrs May and her officials to present to the Cabinet a more robust assessment of business disruption a hard or no-deal Brexit could cause and argue for Britain to make more concessions to the EU.
But having “got them out of trouble”, the source said Airbus is now furious with the Government.
It has emerged in defence circles that the Ministry of Defence has all but finalised a £2bn deal to buy E-7 “Wedgetail” early warning jets from its bitter rival Boeing. The aircraft will take over from the RAF’s fleet of worn-out E-3 “Sentry” jets, which were also built by the US company. Airbus and other aerospace companies have been lobbying for the contract to be awarded on the basis of open bidding, rather than handed to Boeing.
The prospect of no competition and “buying off the shelf” from Boeing, which is unlikely to involve UK companies in the contract, has left Airbus “incandescent”, sources said. Alex Ashbourne-Walmsley of defence think-tank RUSI said: “I’m surprised that the British Government could behave in such a cavalier fashion towards Airbus when the company helped them apply pressure on Brexiteers and now in return it faces issuing humiliated......
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More fools they - and serves them right for attempting to collude with one side of an internal UK argument over brexit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...rexit-warning/
Airbus fury over loss of RAF deal after Brexit warning
Airbus bosses are furious after the Government spurred them to publish a dire forecast of the impact of Brexit before handing a prize £2bn RAF contract to US rival Boeing without a competition.
The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit....... Sources close to Airbus said the company decided to warn about the future of as many as 15,000 of its UK employees and 110,000 in its supply chain after discussions with the Government. It is understood the ministers argued that industry should speak out on the highly contentious issue and aimed to create what insiders described as “room for manoeuvre” at Chequers. The warning from Airbus allowed Mrs May and her officials to present to the Cabinet a more robust assessment of business disruption a hard or no-deal Brexit could cause and argue for Britain to make more concessions to the EU.
But having “got them out of trouble”, the source said Airbus is now furious with the Government.
It has emerged in defence circles that the Ministry of Defence has all but finalised a £2bn deal to buy E-7 “Wedgetail” early warning jets from its bitter rival Boeing. The aircraft will take over from the RAF’s fleet of worn-out E-3 “Sentry” jets, which were also built by the US company. Airbus and other aerospace companies have been lobbying for the contract to be awarded on the basis of open bidding, rather than handed to Boeing.
The prospect of no competition and “buying off the shelf” from Boeing, which is unlikely to involve UK companies in the contract, has left Airbus “incandescent”, sources said. Alex Ashbourne-Walmsley of defence think-tank RUSI said: “I’m surprised that the British Government could behave in such a cavalier fashion towards Airbus when the company helped them apply pressure on Brexiteers and now in return it faces issuing humiliated......
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...rexit-warning/
Airbus fury over loss of RAF deal after Brexit warning
Airbus bosses are furious after the Government spurred them to publish a dire forecast of the impact of Brexit before handing a prize £2bn RAF contract to US rival Boeing without a competition.
The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit....... Sources close to Airbus said the company decided to warn about the future of as many as 15,000 of its UK employees and 110,000 in its supply chain after discussions with the Government. It is understood the ministers argued that industry should speak out on the highly contentious issue and aimed to create what insiders described as “room for manoeuvre” at Chequers. The warning from Airbus allowed Mrs May and her officials to present to the Cabinet a more robust assessment of business disruption a hard or no-deal Brexit could cause and argue for Britain to make more concessions to the EU.
But having “got them out of trouble”, the source said Airbus is now furious with the Government.
It has emerged in defence circles that the Ministry of Defence has all but finalised a £2bn deal to buy E-7 “Wedgetail” early warning jets from its bitter rival Boeing. The aircraft will take over from the RAF’s fleet of worn-out E-3 “Sentry” jets, which were also built by the US company. Airbus and other aerospace companies have been lobbying for the contract to be awarded on the basis of open bidding, rather than handed to Boeing.
The prospect of no competition and “buying off the shelf” from Boeing, which is unlikely to involve UK companies in the contract, has left Airbus “incandescent”, sources said. Alex Ashbourne-Walmsley of defence think-tank RUSI said: “I’m surprised that the British Government could behave in such a cavalier fashion towards Airbus when the company helped them apply pressure on Brexiteers and now in return it faces issuing humiliated......
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Someone needs to point out you can only have a competition when you have at first inspection something to compete.
In this case, a proven platform Vs a piece of cr@p. Despite being a supporter of the EU, I'm not going to miss the competition rules that so many MoD commercial officers hide behind.
Instead of throwing teddies out of the cot, Airbus sales should see this as an increasing opportunity for them to sell the UK boomer variant A330. How many platforms do we now have with boom receptive and no means of using?
In this case, a proven platform Vs a piece of cr@p. Despite being a supporter of the EU, I'm not going to miss the competition rules that so many MoD commercial officers hide behind.
Instead of throwing teddies out of the cot, Airbus sales should see this as an increasing opportunity for them to sell the UK boomer variant A330. How many platforms do we now have with boom receptive and no means of using?
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Airbus Military
Let’s just wait and see how long this wing of Airbus lasts... the 400 is not performing anywhere near the the specified requirements and the reputational damage to the company has been significant.
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Sadly, many much time, money and effort has been wasted on the E-3D fleet since Project EAGLE was established in the late 1990s. Furthermore, the lack of funds and mismanagement of its maintenance has exacerbated its obsolescence. A replacement is needed, if only because the crew is too large and costly, requiring too many specialists to get it working before an aircraft can be detected, identified and, in the case of friendly fighters, controlled. Furthermore, the aged computers and software, combined with a low revisit time of the hydraulically-driven radar, make it very difficult for the mission crew to react appropriately in a very dynamic situation.
As for its future, it would appear that an upgrade would now be both expensive and futile. Bandwidth and its inherent time delay makes a drone replacement very problematic, especially as there doesn’t appear to be a platform readily available. Consequently, although there are potentially other options, none seem as suitable as Boeing’s Wedgetail. Back in the late 90s and early 00s we hosted several RAAF officers sent to No 8 Sqn to glean operational AEW experience before returning to Oz and the new platform. They now should have a wealth of experience on type, from which we could learn.
Let’s hope the rumours of a Wedgetail purchase are correct, and we don’t repeat our past follies with Nimrod AEW and Nimrod MRA4. Our new carrier task group will need top cover if it is to survive the threats it is likely to face. Let’s hope the MOD gets it right, and the PT doesn’t bugger it up!
As for its future, it would appear that an upgrade would now be both expensive and futile. Bandwidth and its inherent time delay makes a drone replacement very problematic, especially as there doesn’t appear to be a platform readily available. Consequently, although there are potentially other options, none seem as suitable as Boeing’s Wedgetail. Back in the late 90s and early 00s we hosted several RAAF officers sent to No 8 Sqn to glean operational AEW experience before returning to Oz and the new platform. They now should have a wealth of experience on type, from which we could learn.
Let’s hope the rumours of a Wedgetail purchase are correct, and we don’t repeat our past follies with Nimrod AEW and Nimrod MRA4. Our new carrier task group will need top cover if it is to survive the threats it is likely to face. Let’s hope the MOD gets it right, and the PT doesn’t bugger it up!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...o-us-gtv0kt8h5
MoD under fire for giving jet deal to US
The Ministry of Defence is pursuing plans to sign a multimillion-pound contract for spyplanes from a US company without an open competition.
Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary, confirmed that the UK was going ahead with talks to acquire airborne early-warning and control-system planes, known as “Awacs”, developed by Boeing and the Australian air force. The announcement, made before a meeting of Nato defence ministers tomorrow, was in defiance of calls from the Commons defence select committee for a competition for the new jets.
Britain wants to replace its surveillance aircraft, a fleet of E3-D Sentry planes, which guide jets in dogfights and bombing raids, amid claims that only one of the six aircraft was operational this summer. The MoD says that buying a proven “off the shelf” aircraft will be better value for money, quicker and less risky than procuring a new, untested model. The move to press ahead without allowing European companies with bigger footprints in Britain to compete for the contract has elicited a backlash.
John Spellar, a Labour member of the defence select committee, said: “I have serious concerns that the government has not launched a proper competition and, equally, is giving contracts regularly to Boeing without consideration of the impact on Britain’s defence industry capability. The Ministry of Defence seems to be running roughshod over the government’s prosperity agenda.” Julian Lewis, the Tory chairman of the committee, said this year that it would be “particularly inappropriate” to award Boeing the contract after it campaigned to levy burdensome US tariffs on airliners built by Bombardier, which would have threatened thousands of jobs in the UK.
MPs yesterday raised concerns about the government making the announcement during a parliamentary recess when it could not be scrutinised.
The contract to supply four to six E-7 Wedgetail jets would be worth more than £800 million, according to reports. It is understood that Airbus and Saab, two of Europe’s top aerospace defence companies, had been in discussion about combining their capabilities to challenge Boeing for the contract.
The MoD says that the Wedgetail has already been proven in Australian air force operations in the battle against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
Boeing said: “The combat-proven Boeing E-7 is the world’s most advanced, capable and reliable command and control aircraft. We work with our UK supply chain, government and military partners to provide critical capability, UK content, UK exports, skills and value for money to our armed forces.” It is understood Boeing plans to have an assembly line in Cambridge to produce part of the Wedgetails.
MoD under fire for giving jet deal to US
The Ministry of Defence is pursuing plans to sign a multimillion-pound contract for spyplanes from a US company without an open competition.
Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary, confirmed that the UK was going ahead with talks to acquire airborne early-warning and control-system planes, known as “Awacs”, developed by Boeing and the Australian air force. The announcement, made before a meeting of Nato defence ministers tomorrow, was in defiance of calls from the Commons defence select committee for a competition for the new jets.
Britain wants to replace its surveillance aircraft, a fleet of E3-D Sentry planes, which guide jets in dogfights and bombing raids, amid claims that only one of the six aircraft was operational this summer. The MoD says that buying a proven “off the shelf” aircraft will be better value for money, quicker and less risky than procuring a new, untested model. The move to press ahead without allowing European companies with bigger footprints in Britain to compete for the contract has elicited a backlash.
John Spellar, a Labour member of the defence select committee, said: “I have serious concerns that the government has not launched a proper competition and, equally, is giving contracts regularly to Boeing without consideration of the impact on Britain’s defence industry capability. The Ministry of Defence seems to be running roughshod over the government’s prosperity agenda.” Julian Lewis, the Tory chairman of the committee, said this year that it would be “particularly inappropriate” to award Boeing the contract after it campaigned to levy burdensome US tariffs on airliners built by Bombardier, which would have threatened thousands of jobs in the UK.
MPs yesterday raised concerns about the government making the announcement during a parliamentary recess when it could not be scrutinised.
The contract to supply four to six E-7 Wedgetail jets would be worth more than £800 million, according to reports. It is understood that Airbus and Saab, two of Europe’s top aerospace defence companies, had been in discussion about combining their capabilities to challenge Boeing for the contract.
The MoD says that the Wedgetail has already been proven in Australian air force operations in the battle against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
Boeing said: “The combat-proven Boeing E-7 is the world’s most advanced, capable and reliable command and control aircraft. We work with our UK supply chain, government and military partners to provide critical capability, UK content, UK exports, skills and value for money to our armed forces.” It is understood Boeing plans to have an assembly line in Cambridge to produce part of the Wedgetails.