RAF Start Talks on E-3D Replacement
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 64
Posts: 2,595
The Royal Air Force is in favour of buying between four and six planes from the US aerospace giant Boeing at a cost of £2 billion to £3 billion.
There is something to be said for buying 'off the shelf' when practical.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South of the North
Posts: 104
Looks like any announcement at Farnborough has used been cancelled.
UK must compete future surveillance aircraft procurement, parliament states
UK must compete future surveillance aircraft procurement, parliament states
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,193
Badly worded headline - the text states the committee chairman has “requested” the government to hold a competitive tender.
The MoD and government has ignored all their other suggestions concerning defence - I see no reason to forecast any change in their attitude.
The MoD and government has ignored all their other suggestions concerning defence - I see no reason to forecast any change in their attitude.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 1,265
The committee also considers that a competition is particularly appropriate in this case, as there are viable alternatives available, which deserve to be given fair consideration
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 29
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: moraira,spain
Age: 77
Posts: 313
Nimrod aew3
being on the edges at the time, I recall that a large part of the problem was
the GEC4080 computer, a bit pedestrian for the task. But it was made by GEC.
Lots of better, faster boxes available at the time.
being on the edges at the time, I recall that a large part of the problem was
the GEC4080 computer, a bit pedestrian for the task. But it was made by GEC.
Lots of better, faster boxes available at the time.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 49
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by Davef68
I wonder what they consider 'viable alternatives' ?
Proven mission system - tick
Commonality with Sentinel - tick
Multi-role - tick
UK jobs (built by marshalls) - tick
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: the heathen lands
Posts: 357
Originally Posted by DCThumb
Saab Globaleye?
Proven mission system - tick
Commonality with Sentinel - tick
Multi-role - tick
UK jobs (built by marshalls) - tick
Proven mission system - tick
Commonality with Sentinel - tick
Multi-role - tick
UK jobs (built by marshalls) - tick
is it a replacement for E-3, or just an aeroplane with a radar - coz they aren't the same thing....
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 49
Posts: 156
I have no idea whether it is an E3 replacement or an aeroplane with radar, I was just pointing out what the select committee might think is a viable alternative.
I do know that endurance without refuelling will be significantly greater than wedgetail - and the design work for a probe was completed for Sentinel!
I do know that endurance without refuelling will be significantly greater than wedgetail - and the design work for a probe was completed for Sentinel!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,193
Design work for a probe on aircraft with an underslung canoe is totally different to one for an airframe with a very large radar array on top of the fuselage....
Reading reports the original Saab radar had a maximum range of about 180nm. The new ER version supposedly has a range 70%, but it only flew for the first time this year, so not trusted in service. It apparently has 5 operator positions, but size wise the Shackleton would have been commodious. If I wanted 12+ endurance I’d want a rest area and room for expansion.
Reading reports the original Saab radar had a maximum range of about 180nm. The new ER version supposedly has a range 70%, but it only flew for the first time this year, so not trusted in service. It apparently has 5 operator positions, but size wise the Shackleton would have been commodious. If I wanted 12+ endurance I’d want a rest area and room for expansion.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by DCThumb
I have no idea whether it is an E3 replacement or an aeroplane with radar, I was just pointing out what the select committee might think is a viable alternative.
I do know that endurance without refuelling will be significantly greater than wedgetail - and the design work for a probe was completed for Sentinel!
I do know that endurance without refuelling will be significantly greater than wedgetail - and the design work for a probe was completed for Sentinel!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by DCThumb
Saab Globaleye?
Proven mission system - tick
Commonality with Sentinel - tick
Multi-role - tick
UK jobs (built by marshalls) - tick
Proven mission system - tick
Commonality with Sentinel - tick
Multi-role - tick
UK jobs (built by marshalls) - tick
When you say proven mission system, can you qualify that with recent operational experience? I believe the E-7 has been extremely successful during OKRA and recent Red Flag exercises, not sure GlobalEye has participated in anything? Suitable for in-border tasking, but not an expeditionary asset, not enough operators and limited SWAP-C for the upgrades.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 49
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by caped crusader
Whilst design work for a probe on Sentinel was completed my understanding is that the fitting of a probe was considered high risk and Sentinel entered into service without an AAR capability.
The plain facts were, with no facility for extra crew or rest facilities provisioned, there was little point in flying for longer than 12 hours on Sentinel.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 49
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by gelert1234
I don’t think you can quote the basic aircraft figures for a Global 6000 and apply them to GlobalEye, once you add all the military payload, it won’t operate at the height listed and it certainly won’t have the endurance.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 49
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by gelert1234
When you say proven mission system, can you qualify that with recent operational experience? I believe the E-7 has been extremely successful during OKRA and recent Red Flag exercises, not sure GlobalEye has participated in anything? Suitable for in-border tasking, but not an expeditionary asset, not enough operators and limited SWAP-C for the upgrades.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no idea how good or bad the Globaleye really is, I was just pointing out what a defence committee could see as a ‘viable alternative’ - at least on paper and probably after representations of the MP for Cambridge!
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,549
According to a Boscombe Down chap, the Sentinel struggled to meet specification requirements. Fitting a probe would have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
He was also rather dismissive of the Army's idea of letting 'some helicopter corporal' (as he put it) fly as a Sentinel co-pilot.
Boeing E-7A is the obvious choice to replace the E-3D - anyone who thinks otherwise should be forced to study the Nimrod AEW3 saga. Airbus once offered an 'AEW&C' military derivative of the A310, to be developed in partnership with Raytheon E-Systems and ELTA, but it never even made it to the prototype stage. Planned mission duration was to have been 'over 11 hours'.
He was also rather dismissive of the Army's idea of letting 'some helicopter corporal' (as he put it) fly as a Sentinel co-pilot.
Boeing E-7A is the obvious choice to replace the E-3D - anyone who thinks otherwise should be forced to study the Nimrod AEW3 saga. Airbus once offered an 'AEW&C' military derivative of the A310, to be developed in partnership with Raytheon E-Systems and ELTA, but it never even made it to the prototype stage. Planned mission duration was to have been 'over 11 hours'.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 49
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by BEagle
According to a Boscombe Down chap, the Sentinel struggled to meet specification requirements. Fitting a probe would have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
He was also rather dismissive of the Army's idea of letting 'some helicopter corporal' (as he put it) fly as a Sentinel co-pilot
He was also rather dismissive of the Army's idea of letting 'some helicopter corporal' (as he put it) fly as a Sentinel co-pilot
The only area were the probe may have made it difficult was if it pushed the ZFW towards the limit. However, Bombardier were more than willing to increase the Max ZFW - ‘you just have to ask the question’ was what the designer said to me.
To us, Wedgetail May indeed seem to be the obvious choice. To an MP on a select committee with perhaps less technical knowledge, a UK vested interest and a commercial promise of a similar sounding aircraft for a much lower cost, the choice may be less clear.......
