White, camo or hemp?
Certainly O/C RAF Detachment Red Flag's crew in Nov/Dec 79 (but designated Red Flag 80/1 for US budget reasons) flew in wraparound ( the first one, I think), but I'm pretty sure the other three a/c had the previous paint job.
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I don't know about the anti-flash white, but I can think of a few aircraft that would have looked great in an all-over gloss black finish.... Thunder City did it with a Buccaneer....
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Please forgive intrusion from civil side.
On a point of order, but I think the first Vulcan in wrap-round camouflage was XM607, which wore an unusual scheme of light grey/green upper surfaces, and brown/dark earth under surfaces to a "Red Flag" in 1977.
Believe this hybrid "desert" scheme was to reduce visual signature when banking at low level....
Hope the link works -
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/steve_o...7_nellis_1.htm
On a point of order, but I think the first Vulcan in wrap-round camouflage was XM607, which wore an unusual scheme of light grey/green upper surfaces, and brown/dark earth under surfaces to a "Red Flag" in 1977.
Believe this hybrid "desert" scheme was to reduce visual signature when banking at low level....
Hope the link works -
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/steve_o...7_nellis_1.htm
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On the subject of the V-bombers: why did the UK choose to develop and put in production three different aircraft to meet the same requirement? That seems odd from a US perspective.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Actually there were four in contention, but the Sperrin never made it to production. As I understand it, the concern was that they were venturing into the unknown, so didn't want all the eggs in one basket. The Valiant was a very conventional aircraft, so a safe bet until the others came along. The Vulcan and Victor were developed side-by-side in case one of the technologies fell by the wayside, and I guess once they had both flown, it didn't cost that much to buy both types. Belt and braces.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ken, look up Sperrin. It spread the risk as the Vulcan and Victor were technically very advanced and high risk.
Ken, as above and ...
In the immediate post-war timescale the requirement was for a high altitude nuclear capable jet bomber. The jet engine was a relatively new concept and the thrust required demand an extension of new axial designs; two types were considered; Avon and Sapphire.
Two of the aerodynamic proposals considered radical designs; delta wing for the Vulcan, and crescent wing for the Victor. The Valiant / Sperrin were the the least risky options, aero and engine, and would be available first. The Sperrin was dropped during development as being inferior to the Valiant.
The more advanced aerodynamic types used small prototype aircraft for proof of concept (Avro 707, HP88) to mitigate some risk and thus took longer to develop.
Therefore the choice of three was to spread the risk of unproven technologies, plus some politics and rationalisation of the post war industry. In the event the Valiant was a good ‘stop gap’ (very capable), and both of the other aircraft proved very capable - superior. Both were put into productions - politics, spread of risk, and keeping a competitive driver.
In the immediate post-war timescale the requirement was for a high altitude nuclear capable jet bomber. The jet engine was a relatively new concept and the thrust required demand an extension of new axial designs; two types were considered; Avon and Sapphire.
Two of the aerodynamic proposals considered radical designs; delta wing for the Vulcan, and crescent wing for the Victor. The Valiant / Sperrin were the the least risky options, aero and engine, and would be available first. The Sperrin was dropped during development as being inferior to the Valiant.
The more advanced aerodynamic types used small prototype aircraft for proof of concept (Avro 707, HP88) to mitigate some risk and thus took longer to develop.
Therefore the choice of three was to spread the risk of unproven technologies, plus some politics and rationalisation of the post war industry. In the event the Valiant was a good ‘stop gap’ (very capable), and both of the other aircraft proved very capable - superior. Both were put into productions - politics, spread of risk, and keeping a competitive driver.
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Spreading the risk - makes a lot of sense. USAF did that a lot also. But they seldom actually brought more than one design into production, preferring instead to cancel one design in development in favor of another one. And as was mentioned, this often resulted in lots of outrage from the politicians who represented the loser. Thanks for the info.
Thread Starter
Some very interesting information from a number of sources, thank you all
I had forgotten about the all-over silver which preceded the anti-flash white. There is currently a nice picture of a line-up of silver Valiants on a Facebook page devoted to the type.
That info on TTF was very enlightening, Tengah Type. I mentioned I had a picture of a white XA 918 refuelling two Lightnings in 1965 - would you know who "owned" that aircraft?
Oh dear, Beagle - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa 
I had forgotten about the all-over silver which preceded the anti-flash white. There is currently a nice picture of a line-up of silver Valiants on a Facebook page devoted to the type.
That info on TTF was very enlightening, Tengah Type. I mentioned I had a picture of a white XA 918 refuelling two Lightnings in 1965 - would you know who "owned" that aircraft?
I can think of a few aircraft that would have looked great in an all-over gloss black finish...
by the way, 'camo' is a term only used by spotters...
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Thanks TTN; that is a NICE looking aeroplane. It shows you can always learn something; I never knew about the pathfinder version.
TTN
The Victor B1/K1s were in the XA series of numbers, the B1A/K1As were XH***. XA 918 does not feature in my log book, and we on 214 flew the B1/K1s.
It is unlikely that it is a 55 Sqn B(K)1A two point aircraft as they were in the XH*** series. 55 received their 6 aircraft in May to Aug 1965, becoming operational on the type in Aug 1965.
So, XA918 could be a trials fit aircraft at Handley-Page or possibly Boscombe Down.
I arrived at Marham in June 1966 and all of 55 Sqn and 57 Sqn aircraft were in camouflage. 214 Sqn started to receive its own aircraft in Oct 1966, again all were camouflaged.
The Victor B1/K1s were in the XA series of numbers, the B1A/K1As were XH***. XA 918 does not feature in my log book, and we on 214 flew the B1/K1s.
It is unlikely that it is a 55 Sqn B(K)1A two point aircraft as they were in the XH*** series. 55 received their 6 aircraft in May to Aug 1965, becoming operational on the type in Aug 1965.
So, XA918 could be a trials fit aircraft at Handley-Page or possibly Boscombe Down.
I arrived at Marham in June 1966 and all of 55 Sqn and 57 Sqn aircraft were in camouflage. 214 Sqn started to receive its own aircraft in Oct 1966, again all were camouflaged.
Thread Starter
Sounds likely T-T. My photo, which my son bought for me on ebay, is an Associated Press "wirephoto" sent from London to the US some time in 1965. It mentions that the tankers will enter service "later this year" so the assumption that it is an HP or Boscombe aircraft, not on a squadron, is probably correct.
Victor camouflage colours
In the Ian Allan book on the V bombers it mentions that Victors could be painted in two versions of green, along with the grey.
One was BS 381 Green and the other NATO green. The way to tell the inference was that one had hard edges to the pattern and the other soft edges. I'm afraid the grey cells don't recall which was which....
When they were repainted in hemp, this was on the upper surfaces only, with the undersides being in light aircraft grey
One was BS 381 Green and the other NATO green. The way to tell the inference was that one had hard edges to the pattern and the other soft edges. I'm afraid the grey cells don't recall which was which....
When they were repainted in hemp, this was on the upper surfaces only, with the undersides being in light aircraft grey
Last edited by bobward; 20th Mar 2018 at 12:22. Reason: Forgot to add a bit!
