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Vulcan B2?

Old 3rd Mar 2018, 07:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Nope. The GV79 trips I flew averaged 5:05. My longest competition sortie was 5:25, but we had to land at McConnell to refuel for the 1:00 back to Barksdale.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 08:42
  #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Wiki citation is taken from this video. Avro or RAF?

https://youtu.be/eOmPJOT-wUg
I remember seeing a diagram that showed the Vulcan configuration as a mine layer. I think the plan was to use its speed and accuracy to lay mine fields in the Skagerrak thus bottling up the Baltic Fleet. The problem with a multi-role aircraft is the diversion from its primary role, in this period nuclear delivery.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 08:46
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The longest I can find in my logbook is 8.00 unrefueled, but that was in the queen of the skies on a cruise climb operation. (A Valiant for those who are in any doubt.)
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 09:14
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Pretty impressive Pontifex. Our late lamented AEO Ken Finlay was proud of one entry in his logbook from his days as a siggie on Neptunes. Take off was at 2345 and landing was at 0015 - the day after next. Sortie length 24hrs 30mins, but technically a 3 day trip.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 09:17
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PN

04 Nov 80 GV semi-final (night) - 5:30.
12 Nov 80 GV final (day) - 5:20.

Perhaps Beagle could give 1979 comparison?
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 09:22
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Sorry Beags - missed your post. We had to refuel at Offut after the final but that gave our co the chance for a fleeting tryst with his fiancee!

Last edited by Barksdale Boy; 3rd Mar 2018 at 09:25. Reason: typo
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 09:22
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by pontifex View Post
The longest I can find in my logbook is 8.00 unrefueled, but that was in the queen of the skies on a cruise climb operation. (A Valiant for those who are in any doubt.)
Which fits with my mention of the superior range and speed of the Mk1 Vulcan.
However I am not sure about the alleged 0.98 MN from early published sources.
I think BEagle is best qualified to talk Mach. IIRC the Mk 1 could do 0.96 but IMN or TMN I don't know. The Mk 2 was either 0.92 or 0.93 depending on engines with Auto Mach trim and a little faster without. I recall one high speed run with auto Mach trim off. The whole nav crate appeared to be rising and falling. In reality it was my eyeballs rolling. I guess with had quite large pitch movements.
I also recall the fastest low level speed as well north of 400 kts. It was on an away match attacking a French airfield as we were being chased down by a Vatour. The RTS was a bit vague about low level limits.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 10:38
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TTN,

Your post about Ken Finlay brought back memories of half a century ago. Was he not with us both at KT?

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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 17:02
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I managed 6.35 on a Scampton Taceval sortie, 24th May '76 XM569
Lucky me it was daytime!

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 18:22
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Originally Posted by pontifex View Post
The longest I can find in my logbook is 8.00 unrefueled, but that was in the queen of the skies on a cruise climb operation. (A Valiant for those who are in any doubt.)
Was that out of Lossie, cruise climb to c50,000 ft plus then to the Kola (sp) Peninsula area for a few hours back and forth, checking where the Russian sub was going after the ice was breaking, and then back to Wyton ?
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 23:04
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Your post about Ken Finlay brought back memories of half a century ago. Was he not with us both at KT?
He was indeed OD - up on top of Tai Mo Shan doing something highly secret under the leadership of Sqn Ldr "Batchy" Brown!
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 19:59
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It never happened, due to the cancellation of Skybolt, but...


Vulcan Phase 6 (Vulcan B.3)
Silhouette of the original study for the Vulcan B.3 patrol missile carrier.


In 1960, the Air Staff approached Avro with a request into a study for a patrol missile carrier armed with up to six Skybolt missiles capable of a mission length of 12 hours. Avro's submission in May 1960 was the Phase 6 Vulcan, which if built would have been the Vulcan B.3. The aircraft was fitted with an enlarged wing of 121 ft (37 m) span with increased fuel capacity; additional fuel tanks in a dorsal spine; a new main undercarriage to carry an all-up-weight of 339,000 lb (154,000 kg); and reheated Olympus 301s of 30,000 lbf (130 kN) thrust. An amended proposal of October 1960 inserted a 10 ft 9 in (3.28 m) plug into the forward fuselage with capacity for six crew members including a relief pilot, all facing forwards on ejection seats, and aft-fan versions of the Olympus 301
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 21:20
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
IIRC the Giant Voice sorties were around 6 hours, can BB confirm?
It's a no from me as well as Beags, my GV79 semi-final was 5:20 & the final 5:00.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 17:55
  #34 (permalink)  
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Hello All

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.


Regards

Glider 90
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 18:14
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Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver View Post
GLIDER90

Firstly, I may be wrong, but my reading of Old Duffers post was not one of sarcasm or of trying to be unhelpful- merely pointing out that there is never one simple answer to such a simple question.

Again, in Old Duffers defence (not that he needs me to fight his battles) it wasnít him who commented on the Been and Being issue either.

Grammar- the difference between knowing your shit and knowing youíre shit.
Punctuation, surely.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 18:21
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TTN,


Don't see many references to TMS on here. Doing 24-hour duties because of the 'interesting' road journey!
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 20:12
  #37 (permalink)  
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I think my GV times approaching 6 hrs was probably from late 60s, particularly when Bob Tompkins won the Nav Trophy. IIRC the USAF offered tanker support. Also I am not sure it included low level. I know the B57 sortie were around 5-50.
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 08:26
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Originally Posted by GLIDER 90 View Post
Hello All

How many hours could a Vulcan B2 fly without been refuelled in midair or on the ground, and what was the longest sortie without been refuelled flown if known?

Glider 90
I know this is not strictly within the spirit of the thread but, nonetheless, is a valid example.

In 1982, Black Buck 6 flew for a total of 6 hours 40 mins 'unrefuelled'. From its final AAR bracket south after 7 hours airborne from Ascension Island it spent almost an hour overhead Port Stanley to launch 2 Shrike missiles against a TPS-43 radar before returning north. On its only return refuel bracket with a Victor, it spoked the basket and broke its probe. Following an emergency diversion to Rio de Janeiro resulting in it successfully evading 2 Brazilian F5s after jettisoning its crypto, targeting material and films through the escape hatch at 43 000 ft, it landed with a total of 1500 lbs fuel remaining - one engine flaming out when taxiing in. The minimum landing fuel for a Vulcan after diversion was 8000 lbs, reduced to 4000 lbs for operations. A visual circuit required 1700 lbs. The previous Black Buck 5 SEAD mission lasted for 16 hours (albeit with AAR), 5 mins longer than Black Buck 1.

Last edited by Darvan; 6th Mar 2018 at 10:04.
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 10:33
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Itís an interesting question, all the more so because the Vulcan was very rarely flown for endurance rather than range. My feeling is that had a sortie been planned for maximum endurance; i.e. minimum fuel flow; then comfortably in excess of 7 hours would have been achievable. Unless someone has a copy of the ODM lurking in their loft (and any of us can remember how to use it!) then it will be difficult to confirm.

The Nimrod OTOH would probably be flown for endurance for at least a portion of every sortie, although not for maximum endurance but to obtain the lowest fuel flow at the altitude dictated by tactical considerations. This might entail shutting down an engine(s); 2+1+1 or 2+2; but if maximum endurance was sought without constraint then it would be all 4 at optimum altitude, as high as possible. On one sortie when maximum endurance was the objective I went over 10 hours with a high Zero Fuel Weight aircraft.

Those who went on to fly rather more modern machinery will be well aware of the effect of entering Cost Index 0 in the FMCG and watching the managed speed drop to an alarmingly low value! You could save a lot of fuel but spend all day getting there.

YS
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 17:08
  #40 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Yellow Sun View Post
Unless someone has a copy of the ODM lurking in their loft (and any of us can remember how to use it!) then it will be difficult to confirm.
I have. If I can find it I will have a look.

As an aside, the first time I submitted the Wing operational war plan fuel summaries Ops 1a at Bomber, Norman Howard took one look and threw them back at me. Errors were using the wrong weights, including the 6,300lb weight of the Yellow Sun in the fuel and using 240kts for low level instead of 325kts. I asked him what the secret was
Simply he took the time for each sector, take-off to top of descent, TOD low level to final climb point, and FCP to overhead recovery. He added the first and last and three times the low level. He then looked at the high level cruise graph for that total time. Simples.

I drew up a combined fuel graph and could quickly check the plans submitted by the copilots. I never let on I had a cheat guide
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