Scared of Flying?
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I'm staggered at this thread! It never occurred to me that anyone would feel this way. Absolute respect though. Nutloose makes a good point.....the connection with the ground. Drifting a little here, and certainly not making a comparison.....but, as I got older, I found it more and more difficult to operate aerial platforms (up to 99 feet) in the fire service. I'll never forget the feeling when I thought I'd toppled an hydraulic platform....merely a trick of the inner ear thankfully. Anyway.....apologies for commenting here. Nothing but respect from me gents.
MD
MD
But some people just had no fear, some of you who know the Ten will understand this, we had a guy that used to cling onto the drip strip above the rear galley door and then swing himself up onto the pylon... It still scares me to think of it.
Interesting thread that has reminded me of a fear I encountered some 23 years into flying: After the Nimrod XV230 fire, my confidence in the airframe was seriously impaired. Every encounter with turbulence had me worrying that a structural failure would occur, and that I would find myself experiencing some free fall terror that presumably the heroes of XV230 did. I was terrified. I completely lost confidence in the aircraft and requested a ground tour (using another excuse), which I got. It’s sad to think that as a 20 year old Nimrod crew member, I relished pulling g and bouncing around at low level for hours on end; it was so exhilarating. Many of us comment how invincible we thought we were when we were younger, so perhaps it was an age and experience thing that made me realize my mortality. Either way, I am very thankful to have had the flying career that I did, but very humbled to be writing about it today.
MoparDave, my old job also required us to work at heights above flowing water, and it was never a thing that worried me. Also, I was quite happy to work high on a ladder or in a harness dangling off a bridge. However, with age, I've developed what seems to me a quite rational fear of working on high ladders. I suspect it's because I'm aware that my balance, reaction time and coordination are probably not what they were.
A very interesting thread which I hope continues.
I spend most of my (ground based) career on flying squadrons in the FJ,RW and AT fleets and always had the greatest respect for the crews I worked with. Would I have swapped places with them...probably not.
I always enjoyed flying and never turned down a trip but launching at night in crap weather in the middle of winter no way.
You could spot the guys who struggled but kept going. I remember one pilot (a really nice guy) who struggled through OCU and always seemed to be slighly less than comfortable- he was subsequently killed on his first tour. Also remember an experienced captain who got to the runway threshold and decided he couldn't do it anymore. Again, a smashing bloke and who I had the greatest respect for. Finally,I remember a pilot who was taken off flying because he admitted that sometimes when flying he didn't feel like he was in the aircraft- that he was sitting outside watching himself- a brave thing to admit, although someone did tell me it is not an unknown phenomenon especially in IMC?
Personally I was only really scared on a flight once (Chinook across the North sea in February in very marginal weather and rough sea), not helped by a colleague next to me throwing up the whole trip!
I also remember feeling very uncomfortable (scared) on a C130 transit back from the ME when I suddenly became aware that all there was between me and a 24000 ft drop was a couple of thin sheets of metal and what would happen if they split! Bizarrely I felt better when I put my seatbelt back on(?).
I spend most of my (ground based) career on flying squadrons in the FJ,RW and AT fleets and always had the greatest respect for the crews I worked with. Would I have swapped places with them...probably not.
I always enjoyed flying and never turned down a trip but launching at night in crap weather in the middle of winter no way.
You could spot the guys who struggled but kept going. I remember one pilot (a really nice guy) who struggled through OCU and always seemed to be slighly less than comfortable- he was subsequently killed on his first tour. Also remember an experienced captain who got to the runway threshold and decided he couldn't do it anymore. Again, a smashing bloke and who I had the greatest respect for. Finally,I remember a pilot who was taken off flying because he admitted that sometimes when flying he didn't feel like he was in the aircraft- that he was sitting outside watching himself- a brave thing to admit, although someone did tell me it is not an unknown phenomenon especially in IMC?
Personally I was only really scared on a flight once (Chinook across the North sea in February in very marginal weather and rough sea), not helped by a colleague next to me throwing up the whole trip!
I also remember feeling very uncomfortable (scared) on a C130 transit back from the ME when I suddenly became aware that all there was between me and a 24000 ft drop was a couple of thin sheets of metal and what would happen if they split! Bizarrely I felt better when I put my seatbelt back on(?).
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It's been a long winter. I'm looking forward to digging out the Suzuki and getting some motorcycle therapy.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Following Nuttys mention of heights, I experienced the 'need to pee' feeling when sitting on the floor of the Varsity, feet dangling in space, looking through the bomb aimers windows at the ground 4,000 feet below.
Similar sort of view if you were waiting to parachute. OTOH getting into the belly and lying down was no problem.
On fear of flying, either ignorance or overconfidence but not fear. OTOH certainly anxiety. I still recall one anxiety nightmare. The setting was a limited procedure radar bomb run using LP3A on a southerly heading and confusing left and right.
Similar sort of view if you were waiting to parachute. OTOH getting into the belly and lying down was no problem.
On fear of flying, either ignorance or overconfidence but not fear. OTOH certainly anxiety. I still recall one anxiety nightmare. The setting was a limited procedure radar bomb run using LP3A on a southerly heading and confusing left and right.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
PD, on your last, was that around the time when passengers were sucked out of the 747?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
How about fear or anxiety as SLF? Do you sit right behind the pilot, down near the galley, or over the wing?
We once had a navigator known as 'Seagull' - because you had to throw things at him in order to encourage him to fly....
The only time I can recall being frightened in an aeroplane was when the QFI with whom I was flying in a JP decided without any warning to demonstrate rolling inverted and pulling over hills in the Yorkshire Dales at considerably less than 250' a.g.l. "That's what TSR-2 was designed to do!", he said afterwards - perpetuating that myth.
He later killed himself in a Jaguar, I gather....
The only time I can recall being frightened in an aeroplane was when the QFI with whom I was flying in a JP decided without any warning to demonstrate rolling inverted and pulling over hills in the Yorkshire Dales at considerably less than 250' a.g.l. "That's what TSR-2 was designed to do!", he said afterwards - perpetuating that myth.
He later killed himself in a Jaguar, I gather....
This is luckily something that I don’t suffer from. But Pingu, a good mate, did and put pen to paper recently having left. An abridged version of his (excellent and courageous) blog post is here, on p30:
https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediaf...2DCFC98910.pdf
https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediaf...2DCFC98910.pdf
'I learnt about being a Flight Commander from that… '
which is a great tale of overload and stress in an unfamiliar environment.
1. Apart from getting people killed if you make an error, it's directly relevant to his sort of civil management.
2. Good for the City types to read that the mil isn't all cheap booze and mess parties.
Age must have a major bearing on all this. I remember being thrown around in the back of a herc over the Great Yorkshire showground in Harrogate and numerous trips in Chinooks and Puma's over the Yorkshire Dales back in the '80's.....and loving every single second! My faith in the aircrew was absolute....after all, their training would save us, right? My incident with the hydraulic platform, whilst only being at about 60 0r 70 feet at the time, changed everything for me. Added to the fact I was getting older meant my appetite for risk was diminishing rapidly. It really hit me though when I was running towards the rear of a burning plumbers van on the A1 near the Linton on Ouse exit.....and I was imagining exploding cylinders coming through the back doors! It was vivid and I'd never felt like that before. I was overdue retirement and I knew I'd had a good run. My finger was hovering over the eject button from that day on.
Apologies for making a lame comparison but I'm shocked, humbled and hugely respect the candour here.
MD
Apologies for making a lame comparison but I'm shocked, humbled and hugely respect the candour here.
MD
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mopardave (#16),, and the many of the same opinion,
Couldn't agree more! - same with me, acrophobia, it's called. Even when in my prime (and that's going back a bit!) I had to "screw my courage to the sticking point" to get up on the house roof and fit a wire cowl to the chimney pot. ... Flying? - No trouble at all!
Read somewhere that there is a certain tribe of native americans who have absolutely no feelings of vertigo: they are the ones you see happily running around on a girder 30 storeys high, building a skyscraper. I envied them.
But how would this tie in with the dreaded "LMF" in WWII? I was never in Bomber Command during the war. But later in "Air Tragic" (nice one, Nutty!) met many who frankly admitted that they were terrified all the time on the thirty-odd trips of their tour of ops, They forced themselves to carry on because of the even greater fear of the humiliating treatment meted out to those who bravely confessed to "Lack of Moral Fibre".
I'd like some input here from any of the (few) survivors.
Danny.
Couldn't agree more! - same with me, acrophobia, it's called. Even when in my prime (and that's going back a bit!) I had to "screw my courage to the sticking point" to get up on the house roof and fit a wire cowl to the chimney pot. ... Flying? - No trouble at all!
Read somewhere that there is a certain tribe of native americans who have absolutely no feelings of vertigo: they are the ones you see happily running around on a girder 30 storeys high, building a skyscraper. I envied them.
But how would this tie in with the dreaded "LMF" in WWII? I was never in Bomber Command during the war. But later in "Air Tragic" (nice one, Nutty!) met many who frankly admitted that they were terrified all the time on the thirty-odd trips of their tour of ops, They forced themselves to carry on because of the even greater fear of the humiliating treatment meted out to those who bravely confessed to "Lack of Moral Fibre".
I'd like some input here from any of the (few) survivors.
Danny.
Whilst flying per se never actually frightened me, though I frightend myself and the talking ballast a few times, I have to confess to a real fright, if not absolute terror, of the ejection seat.
From the first time I sat on one in a Jet Provost T3 to my last ever toom flight I was constantly afraid of the thing, nervous of it, with a strong but thankfully well suppressed urge to pull the handle. This “urge” was deep in my physicy and was at it’s very worst about an hour before I clambered onboard and an hour afterwards. Whilst bothered by the explosive violent nasty things, at least when airborne I had a lot to distract me and to relegate the terror to a nagging uncomfortableness at the back of my mind. But just before and after I hated the idea of sitting on one and fixated on pulling the handle.
Oddly, and deeply ironically, after a gap of flying post RAF I went for a flight with a friend in a Cessna 150 and can even now recall the horrible and uncomfortable realisation, as we crossed the upwind threshold, that as I had no ejection seat, if something went wrong I was riding it down with no escape.
Never felt that way in an airliner or biz jet though.
Danny42c,
A fascinating question that raises many many more, as a subject for study and debate.
From the first time I sat on one in a Jet Provost T3 to my last ever toom flight I was constantly afraid of the thing, nervous of it, with a strong but thankfully well suppressed urge to pull the handle. This “urge” was deep in my physicy and was at it’s very worst about an hour before I clambered onboard and an hour afterwards. Whilst bothered by the explosive violent nasty things, at least when airborne I had a lot to distract me and to relegate the terror to a nagging uncomfortableness at the back of my mind. But just before and after I hated the idea of sitting on one and fixated on pulling the handle.
Oddly, and deeply ironically, after a gap of flying post RAF I went for a flight with a friend in a Cessna 150 and can even now recall the horrible and uncomfortable realisation, as we crossed the upwind threshold, that as I had no ejection seat, if something went wrong I was riding it down with no escape.
Never felt that way in an airliner or biz jet though.
Danny42c,
A fascinating question that raises many many more, as a subject for study and debate.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
One of my bosses in the FC Branch was Nick B*****y, ex-Lightning pilot. Grounded himself as a Flt Lt, but rose to (at least) Gp Capt as an F.C.
His story was that he was becoming more and more nervous about his flying and the, when on QRA, found himself passing 5000ft in the climb withoutout being able to recall anything about how he got there from the shed.
Once he got back on the ground he went to see his Sqn Boss, explained he couldn’t do it any more and handed over his wings. They tried to persuade him to take some time off, see the medics etc, but he stuck to his guns and never, as he claimed, regretted his decision.
p.s. Just doing some research to see if he is still around, I see he was at the 2014 WIWOL reunion. Aged well if hair very white....
His story was that he was becoming more and more nervous about his flying and the, when on QRA, found himself passing 5000ft in the climb withoutout being able to recall anything about how he got there from the shed.
Once he got back on the ground he went to see his Sqn Boss, explained he couldn’t do it any more and handed over his wings. They tried to persuade him to take some time off, see the medics etc, but he stuck to his guns and never, as he claimed, regretted his decision.
p.s. Just doing some research to see if he is still around, I see he was at the 2014 WIWOL reunion. Aged well if hair very white....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pru00ne, know what you mean about bang seats though oddly I wasn't worried by the F4 or Lightning but the Canberra in the back when I had to strap in having unstrapped.
I find this an incredibly humbling thread. Over the years I have flown with crew have been nervous when flying and I have always tried to fly in such a way that I did not exacerbate their discomfort. I have known others who would often find productive work to avoid being on the flying programme and some who had a very high rate of declaring themselves unfit to fly. Hopefully I have never put any pressure on them and I praise the openness of those who have described their feelings here.
I am at the other extreme of the scale and have a deep seated fear of being unable to fly. I have watched friends be killed in air display accidents and I have had to lead a formation home after the leader crashed. I have to get back on the horse as soon as I can and get back in the air and fly as I always do as soon as I can. This is not bravado or disrespectful but I find it very stressful across my whole life if I am not able to. Most aircrew fear the power that doctors hold over our flying careers and I have had temporary medical restrictions and groundings which have been amongst the most stressful and emotional experiences of my life. There never appeared to be any real consideration of the mental health impact of such actions, no offers of counselling. I am sure that there will be some cynics who may not understand that there are two sides to this coin but please accept what I have said as being an issue that does need to be considered.
I am at the other extreme of the scale and have a deep seated fear of being unable to fly. I have watched friends be killed in air display accidents and I have had to lead a formation home after the leader crashed. I have to get back on the horse as soon as I can and get back in the air and fly as I always do as soon as I can. This is not bravado or disrespectful but I find it very stressful across my whole life if I am not able to. Most aircrew fear the power that doctors hold over our flying careers and I have had temporary medical restrictions and groundings which have been amongst the most stressful and emotional experiences of my life. There never appeared to be any real consideration of the mental health impact of such actions, no offers of counselling. I am sure that there will be some cynics who may not understand that there are two sides to this coin but please accept what I have said as being an issue that does need to be considered.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Lomvak, on aircrew avoiding flying, this was quite common in the V-Force. Usually it related to guesting on a strange crew. Typically someone would go sick. Almost inevitably a second on the sqn in the same category would also go sick.
Most aircrew fear the power that doctors hold over our flying careers and I have had temporary medical restrictions and groundings which have been amongst the most stressful and emotional experiences of my life. There never appeared to be any real consideration of the mental health impact of such actions, no offers of counselling. I am sure that there will be some cynics who may not understand that there are two sides to this coin but please accept what I have said as being an issue that does need to be considered.
I wonder if this thread has misinterpreted the context of ‘scared of flying’ as fear? An alternative is ‘fearfulness’ involving awareness, projection, and preparation, both of personal capability and situation risks.
“Never forget to be afraid” James Reason.
Having known the author as ‘boss’ and friend, I hope he will forgive the following. Outward personality could be interpreted as being ‘mad’, as in mad scientist, or very intelligent and capable. I favoured the latter, suspecting that to be scared of flying was much more to do with fearfulness and being well prepared, particularly in those flying posts identified.
Whilst there was an apparent willingness to engage with risk, - a necessary requirement for learning, gaining experience, and progress, this was done with risk awareness and judgement.
When flying, risks have to be identified and understood, and judged to minimise or avoid the extremes.
This alone is a demanding task, which with continuous engagement can be stressful.
Pilots need to be ‘fearful’ in order to acquire the skill of awareness and judging risk. The process has to be balanced between being overly cautious - stressed out, and engaging in unwarranted or unnecessary risk.
High performance flying is very demanding and over time can induce ‘risk fatigue’, at such times we all need time out.
One concern in modern aviation, particularly in civil flying, is that new pilots do not have opportunity to engage with higher levels of risk, to gain experience and practice the judgement required in demanding situations. As a result of these lower levels there is opportunity for higher stress levels (fear).
Training and the level of experience has to be sufficient for the envisaged task - management’s responsibility; similarly individuals have to prepare themselves - aspects of airmanship. A critical aspect is not to be ‘overly fearful’ of the unknown, but still never forgetting to be afraid. Make the unknown known.
”Whether you succeed or not is irrelevant - there is no such thing. Making your unknown known is the important thing - and keeping the unknown always beyond you.
You and I don’t know whether our vision is clear in relation to our time or not - No matter what failure or success we may have - we will not know - But we can keep our integrity - according to our own sense of balance with the world and that creates our form”. Georgia O’Keeffe.
“Never forget to be afraid” James Reason.
Having known the author as ‘boss’ and friend, I hope he will forgive the following. Outward personality could be interpreted as being ‘mad’, as in mad scientist, or very intelligent and capable. I favoured the latter, suspecting that to be scared of flying was much more to do with fearfulness and being well prepared, particularly in those flying posts identified.
Whilst there was an apparent willingness to engage with risk, - a necessary requirement for learning, gaining experience, and progress, this was done with risk awareness and judgement.
When flying, risks have to be identified and understood, and judged to minimise or avoid the extremes.
This alone is a demanding task, which with continuous engagement can be stressful.
Pilots need to be ‘fearful’ in order to acquire the skill of awareness and judging risk. The process has to be balanced between being overly cautious - stressed out, and engaging in unwarranted or unnecessary risk.
High performance flying is very demanding and over time can induce ‘risk fatigue’, at such times we all need time out.
One concern in modern aviation, particularly in civil flying, is that new pilots do not have opportunity to engage with higher levels of risk, to gain experience and practice the judgement required in demanding situations. As a result of these lower levels there is opportunity for higher stress levels (fear).
Training and the level of experience has to be sufficient for the envisaged task - management’s responsibility; similarly individuals have to prepare themselves - aspects of airmanship. A critical aspect is not to be ‘overly fearful’ of the unknown, but still never forgetting to be afraid. Make the unknown known.
”Whether you succeed or not is irrelevant - there is no such thing. Making your unknown known is the important thing - and keeping the unknown always beyond you.
You and I don’t know whether our vision is clear in relation to our time or not - No matter what failure or success we may have - we will not know - But we can keep our integrity - according to our own sense of balance with the world and that creates our form”. Georgia O’Keeffe.