Cold War Aircraft Design
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Back to Harry's original hypothesis that one side followed or led the other.
I flew fighter and attack planes from 1965 until 1984. So I saw a good portion of the Cold War from an operator's viewpoint.
During that time the only two planes I saw that were "follow the other guy" were the Fencer and Frogfoot. To a lesser extent, the Flanker and Fulcrum may have seemed to follow the Eagle and Viper, but I don't feel that was the case. The design bureau was filling the orders from the Ministry to field planes to meet their doctrine and operational requirements. The Fencer was clearly to fill an attack/interdiction role more than close air suport. Frogfoot might be put forward as an A-10 copy, but I feel the Sovs needed a dedicated ground attack plane suitable for CAS, and they had none. As with the Warthog, the final design had straight wings and was ugly, so big deal.
Gums opines...
Back to Harry's original hypothesis that one side followed or led the other.
I flew fighter and attack planes from 1965 until 1984. So I saw a good portion of the Cold War from an operator's viewpoint.
During that time the only two planes I saw that were "follow the other guy" were the Fencer and Frogfoot. To a lesser extent, the Flanker and Fulcrum may have seemed to follow the Eagle and Viper, but I don't feel that was the case. The design bureau was filling the orders from the Ministry to field planes to meet their doctrine and operational requirements. The Fencer was clearly to fill an attack/interdiction role more than close air suport. Frogfoot might be put forward as an A-10 copy, but I feel the Sovs needed a dedicated ground attack plane suitable for CAS, and they had none. As with the Warthog, the final design had straight wings and was ugly, so big deal.
Gums opines...
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In the late 1940's the USSR asked if Rolls Royce would sell them a jet engine. Somewhat to the USSR's surprise it did. The Russians quickly cloned it and installed in MiG-15s used in the Korean War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-15
The Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer A. S. Yakovlev suggested to Premier Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy the conservative but fully developed Nene engines from Rolls-Royce for the purpose of copying them in a minimum of time. Stalin is said to have replied, "What fool will sell us his secrets?"
However, he gave his consent to the proposal and Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others travelled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene. Sample engines were purchased and delivered with blueprints. Following evaluation and adaptation to Russian conditions, the windfall technology was tooled for mass-production as the Klimov RD-45 to be incorporated into the MiG-15.
However, he gave his consent to the proposal and Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others travelled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene. Sample engines were purchased and delivered with blueprints. Following evaluation and adaptation to Russian conditions, the windfall technology was tooled for mass-production as the Klimov RD-45 to be incorporated into the MiG-15.
Thanks for the clarification, agree that the designers of the Buc did a great job. Making increasingly larger and higher performance aircraft work off smallish carriers was indeed a difficult set of requirements. The US move to the Super Carrier perhaps reduced the need for aerodynamic "tricks" such as BLC to make high performance aircraft work at sea, and could thus make more conventional, and even larger, aircraft work. I am still somewhat surprised that the F-4 worked so well of the boat. The F-4 needed additional "tricks" to work off the smaller UK carriers. Carrier aviation resulted in some unique solutions: The F-14 needed swing wings to go both fast and slow, extended nose struts, the cranked Crusader wing, the Buc BLC, full span flaps and slats, ski-jumps....
In the late 1940's the USSR asked if Rolls Royce would sell them a jet engine. Somewhat to the USSR's surprise it did. The Russians quickly cloned it and installed in MiG-15s used in the Korean War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-15
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-15
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I think that the most iconic images of the Cold War would be of the F4 and the AK47.
However , the two items that look particularly purposeful are the Buccaneer and the FV4201 - that is a Chieftain tank to you lot.
Then again , a mushroom cloud could look a little insidious.
However , the two items that look particularly purposeful are the Buccaneer and the FV4201 - that is a Chieftain tank to you lot.
Then again , a mushroom cloud could look a little insidious.
Roving,
25 Nene I and 30 Derwent V engines were sold to the Soviets.
Jet Aero-Engines (Russia) (Hansard, 21 February 1949)
The US was able to gain access to the Soviet engine copies and developments from 1951 onwards via MiG-15 wreckage in Korea. The first evaluations on intact airframes were from two Polish defections to Denmark in 1953. These aircraft were returned. Later in 1953 the US got to keep and evaluate a MiG-15 after a North Korean Pilot defected.
Details from the history of the US National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC)
http://nasicaa.org/uploads/3/5/4/2/3.../chapter02.pdf
The US evaluated the RD-500 (Derwent V) powered Yak-23 Flora during 1953.
25 Nene I and 30 Derwent V engines were sold to the Soviets.
Mr. Donner asked the Minister of Supply what types of jet engine were included among the 55 sold to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in 1947; what were the numbers of each; and why the licences permitting such sales were issued by him.
Mr. G. R. Strauss Twenty-five Rolls-Royce "Nene I" and 30 "Derwent V" engines were sold to Russia. In answer to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on 6th December last.
Mr. G. R. Strauss Twenty-five Rolls-Royce "Nene I" and 30 "Derwent V" engines were sold to Russia. In answer to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on 6th December last.
The US was able to gain access to the Soviet engine copies and developments from 1951 onwards via MiG-15 wreckage in Korea. The first evaluations on intact airframes were from two Polish defections to Denmark in 1953. These aircraft were returned. Later in 1953 the US got to keep and evaluate a MiG-15 after a North Korean Pilot defected.
Details from the history of the US National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC)
http://nasicaa.org/uploads/3/5/4/2/3.../chapter02.pdf
The US evaluated the RD-500 (Derwent V) powered Yak-23 Flora during 1953.
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During that time the only two planes I saw that were "follow the other guy" were the Fencer and Frogfoot. To a lesser extent, the Flanker and Fulcrum may have seemed to follow the Eagle and Viper, but I don't feel that was the case.
There was certainly some F-111 in Fencer, but also some big differences, including the lack of a weapons bay. Su-24 was a parallel evolution to Tornado in terms of weapon carriage. However (the F-111B aside), the most common item was the CONOPS.
Frogfoot was very different from A-X/A-10. Pure jets rather than high-BPR fans, a much thinner, more highly loaded wing, and much less focus on the gun. In a sense it was a compromise between the MiG-27/Su-17 class and an A-10; in a sense it was the outcome of a long-felt nostalgia for the Shturmovik.
Su-27 and MiG-29 reflected a common requirement: better agility than the teen-series, including high-alpha + HOBS + HMS; F-14/15-like speed; and BVR sensors and weapons. And the MiG-29 had to use gravel runways (which are harder to disable than concrete). Something had to give, and the Su was big and expensive and the MiG had horrible range.
There was certainly some F-111 in Fencer, but also some big differences, including the lack of a weapons bay. Su-24 was a parallel evolution to Tornado in terms of weapon carriage. However (the F-111B aside), the most common item was the CONOPS.
Frogfoot was very different from A-X/A-10. Pure jets rather than high-BPR fans, a much thinner, more highly loaded wing, and much less focus on the gun. In a sense it was a compromise between the MiG-27/Su-17 class and an A-10; in a sense it was the outcome of a long-felt nostalgia for the Shturmovik.
Su-27 and MiG-29 reflected a common requirement: better agility than the teen-series, including high-alpha + HOBS + HMS; F-14/15-like speed; and BVR sensors and weapons. And the MiG-29 had to use gravel runways (which are harder to disable than concrete). Something had to give, and the Su was big and expensive and the MiG had horrible range.
Pakistan got some Shenyang J5s as training aircraft from China. They beefed about engine reliability so much that there was a rumour going around that the Chinese paid Rolls Royce to go to China to sort out their drawings and patterns.
Their copies of copies weren't doing very well.
Their copies of copies weren't doing very well.
