Beam Detection in the Battle of Britain
To give you an idea of the race, at the beginning of its operational history the Lancaster was carrying a radio, and that was about it. By the end of the war it was carrying up to 2 tons of electronics, just to survive and operate over Germany. 2 tons! I got this off an old chap who had managed to collect an example of everything the Lanc had carried, and it was impressive.
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Apropos RV Jones - a most unassuming man and certainly not arrogant. Knew him in later life when he was 'Prof Jones' - Professor of Natural Philosophy (Physics to you and me) at Aberdeen Uni in the 70s. Took a great interest in both the UAS and the URNU , in fact was our guest of honour at one Mess Dinner for the latter when I was presiding, so sitting next to the great man was fascinating. His lectures were legendary, incorporating much of his wartime life, so much so that an awful lot more students turned up than just his Physics lot. Lovely man.
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I bought a second copy of RV Jones book only last year. The original I had in the 80s went missing. I too consider it essential reading. He is one person I would have wished to have met. Going through the visitors book at EWAU at Wyton he had been a frequent visitor. Unfortunately as a junior I was not able to meet him.
Off thread but perhaps worth adding. I learned a few weeks ago that my old boss, Hd EW, Barry Ellender had died in November at Addenbrookes from Parkinson’s. He lived in Kent, the funeral took place in Kent. Barry left EWAU for a job in DI perhaps following in RVs footsteps.
I enjoyed the Sidewinder story above. I know RV had undertaken the foundation work on IR detectors. Amazing how everything is so miniature these days. I wish I had known of the museum at China Lake as I had been a couple of times to undertake some RCS work on Airborne kit in early 2000s
Off thread but perhaps worth adding. I learned a few weeks ago that my old boss, Hd EW, Barry Ellender had died in November at Addenbrookes from Parkinson’s. He lived in Kent, the funeral took place in Kent. Barry left EWAU for a job in DI perhaps following in RVs footsteps.
I enjoyed the Sidewinder story above. I know RV had undertaken the foundation work on IR detectors. Amazing how everything is so miniature these days. I wish I had known of the museum at China Lake as I had been a couple of times to undertake some RCS work on Airborne kit in early 2000s
Bloody cold up here Fanshawe
Came across this excerpt from The Enemy is Listening by Aileen Clayton
The principal radio operators involved in this hazardous venture, who spent many airsick hours in a gondola slung beneath the swaying balloon 3000 or 4000 feet above Dover, with air-raids in progress beneath them, were the then Flying Officer Jimmy Mazdon and Pilot Officer Basil Sadler. By coincidence, Sadler was the great grandson of the early English balloonist of the same name. ( He was to be killed later during an investigational flight over Western Europe.) The venture was ...
Maddeningly, I can't find a longer excerpt with what comes after the ellipsis, and the book doesn't seem to be available in electronic format. However, from a review on another site, some info about the author and the RAF Y Service (which was part of or worked in conjunction with the War Office 'Y' Group, I believe), that might aid in finding other references:Aileen Clayton’s The Enemy is Listening (1980) is part personal memoir and part history of the RAF Y Service in Great Britain and the Mediterranean. The Y Service was the RAF’s contribution to the interception of enemy radio signals, and Clayton was one of the first operators for the service’s program intercepting voice transmissions (in British parlance, voice transmissions were Radio Telephony, or R/T; Morse code transmissions were Wireless Telegraphy, or W/T). R/T intercepts were valuable during the Battle of Britain because they offered immediate information on German operations as or before they happened. But, as The Enemy is Listening describes, R/T interception overlapped with many other aspects of the intelligence war: Bletchley Park and the breaking of Enigma, radar and non-communication signals like guidance beams and navigational beacons, and communications security. Clayton makes it clear that Allied signals security was often lousy, and that her German counterparts must have been gathering an awful lot of information on Allied air activity.
The cover of my Ballantine edition tags Clayton as “the first woman in British history to be commissioned as an intelligence officer.” R/T interception in Great Britain was, from almost the first moment, almost exclusively staffed by the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF).
FYI, the "early English balloonist" great-grandfather of Basil is James Sadler who, per the Royal Aeronautical Society, "... in 1810 became the first man to fly over (but then into!) the Bristol Channel after skirting the Glamorgan coast - this being the first balloon flight over Welsh soil."The cover of my Ballantine edition tags Clayton as “the first woman in British history to be commissioned as an intelligence officer.” R/T interception in Great Britain was, from almost the first moment, almost exclusively staffed by the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF).
Apropos RV Jones - a most unassuming man and certainly not arrogant. Knew him in later life when he was 'Prof Jones' - Professor of Natural Philosophy (Physics to you and me) at Aberdeen Uni in the 70s. Took a great interest in both the UAS and the URNU , in fact was our guest of honour at one Mess Dinner for the latter when I was presiding, so sitting next to the great man was fascinating. His lectures were legendary, incorporating much of his wartime life, so much so that an awful lot more students turned up than just his Physics lot. Lovely man.
Had I been 10 years older I'd have been sorely tempted to go to Aberdeen Uni simply because of his association with the place. As it happens I went to Shrivenham...
I bought a second copy of RV Jones book only last year. The original I had in the 80s went missing. I too consider it essential reading. He is one person I would have wished to have met. Going through the visitors book at EWAU at Wyton he had been a frequent visitor. Unfortunately as a junior I was not able to meet him.
Off thread but perhaps worth adding. I learned a few weeks ago that my old boss, Hd EW, Barry Ellender had died in November at Addenbrookes from Parkinson’s. He lived in Kent, the funeral took place in Kent. Barry left EWAU for a job in DI perhaps following in RVs footsteps.
I enjoyed the Sidewinder story above. I know RV had undertaken the foundation work on IR detectors. Amazing how everything is so miniature these days. I wish I had known of the museum at China Lake as I had been a couple of times to undertake some RCS work on Airborne kit in early 2000s
Off thread but perhaps worth adding. I learned a few weeks ago that my old boss, Hd EW, Barry Ellender had died in November at Addenbrookes from Parkinson’s. He lived in Kent, the funeral took place in Kent. Barry left EWAU for a job in DI perhaps following in RVs footsteps.
I enjoyed the Sidewinder story above. I know RV had undertaken the foundation work on IR detectors. Amazing how everything is so miniature these days. I wish I had known of the museum at China Lake as I had been a couple of times to undertake some RCS work on Airborne kit in early 2000s
Our chap gave the after dinner speech as guest of honour, relating some of the issues that had cropped up on Concorde. During this he says something like "I see that you're having problems with your engine intakes, that your prototype isn't as fast as you thought it would be, and your fuel consumption is terrible". He was bang on the money, this was exactly the situation they were in. Unfortunately, this was a closely guarded secret, and he'd just blurted it out in front of the assembled diners, most of whom were certainly not cleared into that aspect of the program!!! As security fowl ups go, it was a bit of a biggy.
What our chap had noticed on his tour round the plant was that there were lots of pressure probes mounted in front of the engine intakes, and he'd rightly guessed that the Americans were trying to understand the airflows into the engine at high speed. From this he'd deduced that it was under performing, They'd had similar problems with Concorde, and he recognised what they were trying to do.
After the fuss calmed down and they'd decided he wasn't some sort of uber-spy-James-Bond's-brother, he explained what they'd done about it on Concorde. Back in those days, determining airflow from pressure probes was a big numerical challenge, too big to be undertaken unless desperate. However the Concorde guys had a good trick. They'd smear the wing surfaces in front of the engine intake with tar. They'd take off, get up to supersonic speed, cruise for a short while, and then quickly slow down again. The tar would warm up, get blown into the shape of the airflows around the wing surfaces, and then set, preserving the pattern for all to see on the ground.
Wipe it off with solvent and they could do that several times a day for little more than the cost of the fuel, and literally see what was going on. In contrast the number crunching on the data from a bunch of pressure probes would take ages in those days.
I visited the museum in China Lake in the mid 2000s. I think it was fairly new, it may not have been open when you were there.
Freeman Dyson advocated getting rid of all gun turrets to make the Lanc 50mph faster and more maneuverable. The powers that be wouldn't listen. Whilst I doubt that the added weight of electronics allowed it to survive, ( systems such as Monica and Fishpond were homed in on by the Germans and Gee was jammed all the way from the Dutch coast and beyond) H2S did allow for more accurate navigation.
There were some long lived systems in WWII. Gee was compromised by over enthusiastic trials by the RAF over Germany with an early set, which was lost and fell into German hands. RV Jones invented a system called Jay, in the hope of throwing them off the scent. I understand from Jones' book that once the Germans realised they'd been had, that Jay was a spoof and that Gee was the real deal, they completely ignored Jay for the remainder and it served as a useful homing aid.
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Que? If you've successfully jammed the carrier frequency in the target region, what does it matter how, or even if, it is modulated? Unless I've misunderstood what you were saying.
The early jammers were converted diathermy machines from hospitals, they knew the frequency but not the modulation I believe.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As an aside, when RVJ was doing his TV series, I believe he was known as 4 Fee Jones.
Remember, he was only 29 when the blitz began.
Remember, he was only 29 when the blitz began.
I can never understand why he was never given a Knighthood or some other title,other than a CBE. He must have saved countless thousands of lives.
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The Order of the Companions of Honour is an order of the Commonwealth realms. It was founded in June 1917 by King George V as a reward for outstanding achievements and is "conferred upon a limited number of persons for whom this special distinction seems to be the most appropriate form of recognition, constituting an honour disassociated either from the acceptance of title or the classification of merit. The order consists of the Sovereign plus no more than 65 members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_...ions_of_Honour
Last edited by roving; 21st Dec 2017 at 17:16. Reason: added
He was made a Companion of Honour.
Lord Coe was awarded it as was Stephen Hawking, Paul McCartney and David Hockney. In the pecking order of honours it is quite high. It ranks higher than a KB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_...ions_of_Honour
Lord Coe was awarded it as was Stephen Hawking, Paul McCartney and David Hockney. In the pecking order of honours it is quite high. It ranks higher than a KB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_...ions_of_Honour
Not until 1994 apparently. It says a lot for this country, whilst men and women were dying for our freedom, the powers that be decided that the Status Quo must be kept and a relatively lowly, but brilliant civil servant should not be allowed to be promoted or given official recognition above his station. These days Knighthoods are tossed around like confetti for all kind of worthless individuals
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Churchill's list was a knight of the Garter (personal gift of the Monarch there are only 24 at any one time), Order of Merit and Companion of Honour, (plus others).
John Major was also a KG and a CH.
I take your points about awards to the Civil Service and the delay here. I suspect in large measure it reflected the lack of recognition generally in the post war years for the contribution many made to the victory in 1945. I think in the twenty or thirty years post war the Country wanted to forget the past and look to the future. Wars were not generally fashionable between 1945 and the Falklands War. Many involved in WWII didn't want to talk about it and their role in it. It is only since the WWII 'heroes' started dying off that the current generations have started to show an inquisitive interest in what their mums and dad''s (or grand parents) did in the war.
John Major was also a KG and a CH.
I take your points about awards to the Civil Service and the delay here. I suspect in large measure it reflected the lack of recognition generally in the post war years for the contribution many made to the victory in 1945. I think in the twenty or thirty years post war the Country wanted to forget the past and look to the future. Wars were not generally fashionable between 1945 and the Falklands War. Many involved in WWII didn't want to talk about it and their role in it. It is only since the WWII 'heroes' started dying off that the current generations have started to show an inquisitive interest in what their mums and dad''s (or grand parents) did in the war.
Salute!
What a great thread, and few realize how inportant the "wizards" were, and then there's the code folks.
I have not see the book all talk of, but the dude wrote another that I read here at Eglin AFB - "The Wizard War". I don't think it's the same book, and it has very technical stuff and not a lot of name dropping. You can still get a copy at Amazon for less than $10 U.S.
Having flown in an enemy air defense a few times to bomb a target, and later during the U.S. Red Flag and Green Flag exercises, I appreciate all the good work the pioneers did.
One thing tha surprised me during my readings was made clear in this link:
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/defl...ld-war-ii.html
I had no idea that Germany was actually ahead of Britain in the 30's WRT air defense radar units for actual close work - 60 miles or so. And the German radar seemed to be originally for navbal use. Chain Home was good for long range, but not for control of AAA. The biggie came after the Battle of Britain, and it was the short wavelength radar the Brits developed and passed to the Yanks. Then it was the electronic countermeasures.
Someone mentioned chaff, and I personally exploited those small slivers of aluminum one day over Hanoi. I could see the chaff corridor on my groundmap radar and we flew right down the corridor at 20,000 feet. Many radars beaming at us and a few missiles here and there. The radars didn't get a good lock on us until we had rolled in and about to drop. Too late, so sad. The Fire Can 85mm sites finally locked on as we egressed, but it was mostly optical guns shooting at us.
10 years later I flew in several Green Flags and Red Flags and the electronic wizards had much better stuff. The best thing was embedded ECM support like the EF-111. All that went away a few years later when low observable technology eliminated a lot of the active radar jamming and spoofing.
Gums opines..
What a great thread, and few realize how inportant the "wizards" were, and then there's the code folks.
I have not see the book all talk of, but the dude wrote another that I read here at Eglin AFB - "The Wizard War". I don't think it's the same book, and it has very technical stuff and not a lot of name dropping. You can still get a copy at Amazon for less than $10 U.S.
Having flown in an enemy air defense a few times to bomb a target, and later during the U.S. Red Flag and Green Flag exercises, I appreciate all the good work the pioneers did.
One thing tha surprised me during my readings was made clear in this link:
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/defl...ld-war-ii.html
I had no idea that Germany was actually ahead of Britain in the 30's WRT air defense radar units for actual close work - 60 miles or so. And the German radar seemed to be originally for navbal use. Chain Home was good for long range, but not for control of AAA. The biggie came after the Battle of Britain, and it was the short wavelength radar the Brits developed and passed to the Yanks. Then it was the electronic countermeasures.
Someone mentioned chaff, and I personally exploited those small slivers of aluminum one day over Hanoi. I could see the chaff corridor on my groundmap radar and we flew right down the corridor at 20,000 feet. Many radars beaming at us and a few missiles here and there. The radars didn't get a good lock on us until we had rolled in and about to drop. Too late, so sad. The Fire Can 85mm sites finally locked on as we egressed, but it was mostly optical guns shooting at us.
10 years later I flew in several Green Flags and Red Flags and the electronic wizards had much better stuff. The best thing was embedded ECM support like the EF-111. All that went away a few years later when low observable technology eliminated a lot of the active radar jamming and spoofing.
Gums opines..
I think in the twenty or thirty years post war the Country wanted to forget the past and look to the future. Wars were not generally fashionable between 1945 and the Falklands War. Many involved in WWII didn't want to talk about it and their role in it. It is only since the WWII 'heroes' started dying off that the current generations have started to show an inquisitive interest in what their mums and dad''s (or grand parents) did in the war.
gums, reading Spitfire on my Tail, the first book of Erich Steinhilper's excellent trilogy, it's clear that Germany was some way behind the Allies in the field of integrated air defence at the time of the Battle of Britain.
Freya and Wurzburg might have been under development, but in 1940 some of the ex-Condor Legion pilots such as Adolf Galland didn't even want radios in their Bf109s, complaining that the weight wasn't worth it! Those fighters which did have radio used HF voice (around 5 MHz) and the bombers used MF WT (at around 1.3 MHz) - so the escort fighters couldn't even communicate with the bombers they were escorting! Sorted out later though, with VHF comms at around 40 MHz, but by then it was too late.
On ADEXs, comms spoofing was easily ignored if it came from a 360 Sqn Canberra as the background inverter noise was all too obvious. One of the best spoofs was a reply of the previous days comms exactly 24 hours later - it caused enormous confusion!
Freya and Wurzburg might have been under development, but in 1940 some of the ex-Condor Legion pilots such as Adolf Galland didn't even want radios in their Bf109s, complaining that the weight wasn't worth it! Those fighters which did have radio used HF voice (around 5 MHz) and the bombers used MF WT (at around 1.3 MHz) - so the escort fighters couldn't even communicate with the bombers they were escorting! Sorted out later though, with VHF comms at around 40 MHz, but by then it was too late.
On ADEXs, comms spoofing was easily ignored if it came from a 360 Sqn Canberra as the background inverter noise was all too obvious. One of the best spoofs was a reply of the previous days comms exactly 24 hours later - it caused enormous confusion!
Last edited by BEagle; 21st Dec 2017 at 21:27.
Originally Posted by air pig View Post
...The system was actually difficult to jam as you needed to know both frequency used and how many cycles/second it was transmitted on....
...The system was actually difficult to jam as you needed to know both frequency used and how many cycles/second it was transmitted on....
Efforts to block the Knickebein headache were codenamed "Aspirin". Initially, modified medical diathermy sets transmitted interference, but later, on nights where raids were expected, local radio transmitters broadcast an extra "dot signal" at low power.[17] The German practice of turning on the beams long before the bombers reached the target area aided the British efforts. Avro Ansons fitted with receivers would be flown around the country in an attempt to capture the beams' location; a successful capture would then be reported to nearby broadcasters.[18]
The low-power "dot signal" was initially transmitted essentially at random, so German navigators would hear two dots. This meant there were many equi-signal areas, and no easy way to distinguish them except by comparing them with a known location. The British transmitters were later modified to send their dots at the same time as the German transmitters, making it impossible to tell which signal was which. In this case the navigators would receive the equi-signal over a wide area, and navigation along the bombline became impossible, with the aircraft drifting into the "dash area" and no way to correct for it.
Thus the beam was seemingly "bent" away from the target. Eventually, the beams could be inclined by a controlled amount which enabled the British to fool the Germans into dropping their bombs where they wanted them. A side effect was that as the German crews had been trained to navigate solely by the beams, many crews failed to find either the true equi-signal or Germany again.[19] Some Luftwaffe bombers even landed at RAF bases, believing they were back in the Reich.[20]