Aircrew ranks - WWII
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A few Rock Ape friends informed me, that it was to recognise the responsibility that the role has.... commander of a 4 man fire team, 2 I/C of a 8 man section and (if I remember correctly) they're responsible for counting the ammunition usage.
OK if nobody fires more than 10 rounds.
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Ormeside28
I recall from previous posts on the WWII Brevet forum that you trained at 1BFTS where my dad had trained on an earlier course, but I did not realise that you were stationed in Changi when I was pottering about there awaiting a return flight to the UK on a Hermes in late 1958.
I will not post the details, but you are correct about the generous allowances, including flying pay, a posting to FEAF brought. One of the many perks was a free flight out during the summer school hols for my older brother who was at boarding school in the UK.
I recall from previous posts on the WWII Brevet forum that you trained at 1BFTS where my dad had trained on an earlier course, but I did not realise that you were stationed in Changi when I was pottering about there awaiting a return flight to the UK on a Hermes in late 1958.
I will not post the details, but you are correct about the generous allowances, including flying pay, a posting to FEAF brought. One of the many perks was a free flight out during the summer school hols for my older brother who was at boarding school in the UK.
Roving and Ormeside
There was nothing generous about a posting to FEAF if you were a married officer under the age of 25! Under 21 in the case of airmen.
I went in late '67 as a Plt Off aged 21, only entitled to single rate of LOA, no entitlement to a quarter or hiring and my new bride was not entitled to a duty passage to join me. It was a struggle to cope believe me and certainly took the shine off what should have been a fantastic posting. The rank unfairness of the system was brought home to me by the fact that a guy who had joined on the same day as me but 4 years older and sporting a degree in Geography or something similar, but had less experience of employment i.e. only 1year as a teacher when we joined, whereas I had left school at 16 and had over double the work experience as him ( as a Police Cadet ), was now a Flt Lt on £4,000 compared to my £1,500.
Why the RAF thought there was something special about university graduates is beyond me - there was no recognition for guys who joined aged 25 or 26 and had been in industry for 6 or 7 years but though well qualified did not have a degree.
As Danny 42C has said on several occasions it still rankles with me too!
I went in late '67 as a Plt Off aged 21, only entitled to single rate of LOA, no entitlement to a quarter or hiring and my new bride was not entitled to a duty passage to join me. It was a struggle to cope believe me and certainly took the shine off what should have been a fantastic posting. The rank unfairness of the system was brought home to me by the fact that a guy who had joined on the same day as me but 4 years older and sporting a degree in Geography or something similar, but had less experience of employment i.e. only 1year as a teacher when we joined, whereas I had left school at 16 and had over double the work experience as him ( as a Police Cadet ), was now a Flt Lt on £4,000 compared to my £1,500.
Why the RAF thought there was something special about university graduates is beyond me - there was no recognition for guys who joined aged 25 or 26 and had been in industry for 6 or 7 years but though well qualified did not have a degree.
As Danny 42C has said on several occasions it still rankles with me too!
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This website explains the 1946 aircrew rank/badge system. NCO Badges - RAF 3_P
The main reason for few W/O Aircrew? SNCO Aircrew would need to be around for over two years to reach that exalted rank....in Bomber Command, most were either dead, POWs, or commissioned from the ranks.
The main reason for few W/O Aircrew? SNCO Aircrew would need to be around for over two years to reach that exalted rank....in Bomber Command, most were either dead, POWs, or commissioned from the ranks.
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Thank you Danny, andy1999 and roving. I was on course 18 got mumps and finished on 19 course. I had a crew on each Coastal Squadron, and was lucky enough to have a Master Engineer in all three crews, also on one a Master Navigator, and on one a Master Signaller. The engineers had all been in Bomber Command during the war and were VERY clued up on Engines and airframes. In the Shacks of course the engineers had their own station, in the Neptune’s they had to sit on a wooden stool in the cockpit entrance where all the electric circuit breakers were on a large panel, and in front of them, under a flap in the floor were the fuel cross feeds. The Hastings engineer had his own position and his own set of prop controls and throttles. The niggle at the back of ones mind on the Shackleton was the translation unit which was phosphor bronze. It sat on the prop shaft between the propellers. The prop shaft drove the front propellor and the translation unit “translated” the power to the rear one. The props had to be exercised every two hours to ensure that the prongs on the unit were lubricated. The unit had its lubricant sealed. If the unit failed, the props could not be feathered, the front one could, but the rear idled, got hot, and several Shacks were lost when the rear prop bearings caused a fire which set fire to the wing. It will be interesting to see how the Poseidon works in the RAF. We had twelve Shackleton Squadrons in the fifties and sixties!!
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@Brian 48nav
I am sure that the loss of flying pay & overseas allowances are amongst the reasons why so many ex WWII pilots, who were arbitrarily deemed too old for operational flying in the late 1950's / early 1960's -- which was at the age of 41 in my dad's case, left the service as soon as they were able to.
As I posted on the Brevet thread, most of those who were ex WWII aircrew and who were in KL in the 1950's had, irrespective of how far they had risen up the flag pole, left the Service in the decade following the Sandy's 1957 Defence Review.
The irony is that when he retired and joined Marshalls at Shawbury in late 1961 he flew Vampires and later JP3s and JP4s at Shawbury, along with VR(T) flying until shortly before his 65th birthday.
I am sure that the loss of flying pay & overseas allowances are amongst the reasons why so many ex WWII pilots, who were arbitrarily deemed too old for operational flying in the late 1950's / early 1960's -- which was at the age of 41 in my dad's case, left the service as soon as they were able to.
As I posted on the Brevet thread, most of those who were ex WWII aircrew and who were in KL in the 1950's had, irrespective of how far they had risen up the flag pole, left the Service in the decade following the Sandy's 1957 Defence Review.
The irony is that when he retired and joined Marshalls at Shawbury in late 1961 he flew Vampires and later JP3s and JP4s at Shawbury, along with VR(T) flying until shortly before his 65th birthday.
Thanks for that link Wensleydale. Only one observation, the master aircrew badge illustrated is the post 1950 version with the eagle - the earlier version is the same but without the eagle.
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Thanks TTN. I find the entire RAFweb website very useful. There is little wonder that the 1946 aircrew rank structure and badges were dropped....confusing to find Aircrew IV with one star; Aircrew III with 2 stars; Aircrew II with 3 stars etc.
Carried on over to Air Cadet gliding as well LOL.
P1 grade allowed solo flying without daily solo check.
P2 grade allowed passenger carrying (AEF cadets etc)
Caused much confusion later in life when I returned to gliding in Zimbabwe - when the CFI looked in my old Air Cadet log book he saw the P2 grade glider pilot 'chit' sellotaped on the inside cover and asked why one had a specific qualification to fly as a trainee
The 300 odd launches and 25 hrs TT also caused great mirth.
P1 grade allowed solo flying without daily solo check.
P2 grade allowed passenger carrying (AEF cadets etc)
Caused much confusion later in life when I returned to gliding in Zimbabwe - when the CFI looked in my old Air Cadet log book he saw the P2 grade glider pilot 'chit' sellotaped on the inside cover and asked why one had a specific qualification to fly as a trainee
The 300 odd launches and 25 hrs TT also caused great mirth
.
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Brian 48nav (#24),
.
I reckon your rankle was much worse than my rankle (reckoned as 127 days @ 1/6 a day = £9/10/6).
Geography degree rings a bell, Chap's name wasn't Ian Hutchinson by any chance ?
Danny.
,,,As Danny 42C has said on several occasions it still rankles with me too!..
I reckon your rankle was much worse than my rankle (reckoned as 127 days @ 1/6 a day = £9/10/6).
Geography degree rings a bell, Chap's name wasn't Ian Hutchinson by any chance ?
Danny.
Brian 48 Nav
A university degree is the most magical thing in the world. Couple that with a commission and it becomes, in the eyes of the RAF, a truly remarkable beast.
This was proven, beyond all doubt, when I was undergoing training as an Air Radar Technician. The majority of our instructors were RAF NCO’s undertaking instructor duties, all tradesmen with relevant experience. There was a smattering of Burnham lecturers, all very well qualified and equipped with the requisite knowledge within their subject fields.
Then there were the RAF Education Officers....
Now RF waveguide theory is not the easiest subject to wrap your brain around. We were a little bemused when we discovered that the WRAF Education Officer, standing in front of us had no engineering education or background. How she was expected to impart any useful knowledge to us, when she patently did not have a clue herself, remains a mystery to this day.
In the eyes of the RAF a commission and a bloody Zoology degree are a winning combination.
A university degree is the most magical thing in the world. Couple that with a commission and it becomes, in the eyes of the RAF, a truly remarkable beast.
This was proven, beyond all doubt, when I was undergoing training as an Air Radar Technician. The majority of our instructors were RAF NCO’s undertaking instructor duties, all tradesmen with relevant experience. There was a smattering of Burnham lecturers, all very well qualified and equipped with the requisite knowledge within their subject fields.
Then there were the RAF Education Officers....
Now RF waveguide theory is not the easiest subject to wrap your brain around. We were a little bemused when we discovered that the WRAF Education Officer, standing in front of us had no engineering education or background. How she was expected to impart any useful knowledge to us, when she patently did not have a clue herself, remains a mystery to this day.
In the eyes of the RAF a commission and a bloody Zoology degree are a winning combination.
In the eyes of the RAF a commission and a bloody Zoology degree are a winning combination.[/QUOTE]
Same in the UK Police Forces, partly the reason why they are all imploding today
Same in the UK Police Forces, partly the reason why they are all imploding today
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Brian 48 Nav
A university degree is the most magical thing in the world. Couple that with a commission and it becomes, in the eyes of the RAF, a truly remarkable beast.
This was proven, beyond all doubt, when I was undergoing training as an Air Radar Technician. The majority of our instructors were RAF NCO’s undertaking instructor duties, all tradesmen with relevant experience. There was a smattering of Burnham lecturers, all very well qualified and equipped with the requisite knowledge within their subject fields.
Then there were the RAF Education Officers....
Now RF waveguide theory is not the easiest subject to wrap your brain around. We were a little bemused when we discovered that the WRAF Education Officer, standing in front of us had no engineering education or background. How she was expected to impart any useful knowledge to us, when she patently did not have a clue herself, remains a mystery to this day.
In the eyes of the RAF a commission and a bloody Zoology degree are a winning combination.
A university degree is the most magical thing in the world. Couple that with a commission and it becomes, in the eyes of the RAF, a truly remarkable beast.
This was proven, beyond all doubt, when I was undergoing training as an Air Radar Technician. The majority of our instructors were RAF NCO’s undertaking instructor duties, all tradesmen with relevant experience. There was a smattering of Burnham lecturers, all very well qualified and equipped with the requisite knowledge within their subject fields.
Then there were the RAF Education Officers....
Now RF waveguide theory is not the easiest subject to wrap your brain around. We were a little bemused when we discovered that the WRAF Education Officer, standing in front of us had no engineering education or background. How she was expected to impart any useful knowledge to us, when she patently did not have a clue herself, remains a mystery to this day.
In the eyes of the RAF a commission and a bloody Zoology degree are a winning combination.
He passed the course and made J/T.
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TTN,
Not something I'd thought of.
For the 9 month's of the course he was known to all in the class simply as 'Doc'.
We parted ways when the course ended, I RTU'd to Lindholme, the NS guys had to wait to be posted to units.
We had a guy in the RAFA at Johannesburg who had been a Sgt AG, I once sent you a photo of his medal group, he was a Baronet! So he had been Sgt. Sir XXXX.
Not something I'd thought of.
For the 9 month's of the course he was known to all in the class simply as 'Doc'.
We parted ways when the course ended, I RTU'd to Lindholme, the NS guys had to wait to be posted to units.
We had a guy in the RAFA at Johannesburg who had been a Sgt AG, I once sent you a photo of his medal group, he was a Baronet! So he had been Sgt. Sir XXXX.