SAS eases entry tests for women
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Currently happening within the Green Berets in the US. Long term push to include women, standards lowered prior to actually formally accepting women for training. By the time they are able to start training standards allow them to pass a course that they wouldn’t have a few years before.
There are plenty of women in the forces specifically available for SF duties that require their abilities. I’ve worked with them and they are fantastic. What we are talking about here is not a requirement for more women to fill under resourced roles. This is purely about forcing a politically correct ideal and ignoring the realities of what the role requires.
This is not comparable to women becoming pilots in the RAF. A women is physically and mentally capable of the role. Arguments about having to change ejector seats is not comparable. We’re no talking about not allowing women because we don’t make boots in smaller sizes. A woman is not generally capable of extreme endurance marches carrying heavy weights. If however you can find one then more power to them, I’m sure they would be welcomed as an equal.
Re the idea that the the testing is about mental toughness, sure, but you can be as mentally strong as you like, when your legs give out it counts for nothing. Yes you need a smart guy, but frankly he also needs to be a “donkey” (as someone else suggested) at times. The two go hand in hand.
I’ve worked with SF lads that are 6’6” and others that would be lucky to be 5’6”. The little guy was given no quarter, they carried the same weight and marched the same distance. Ultimately it meant that you didn’t care what the chap looked like, you knew that he could do the job as he had passed the course. If a woman can do that great. Pass the same course and crack on.
There are plenty of women in the forces specifically available for SF duties that require their abilities. I’ve worked with them and they are fantastic. What we are talking about here is not a requirement for more women to fill under resourced roles. This is purely about forcing a politically correct ideal and ignoring the realities of what the role requires.
This is not comparable to women becoming pilots in the RAF. A women is physically and mentally capable of the role. Arguments about having to change ejector seats is not comparable. We’re no talking about not allowing women because we don’t make boots in smaller sizes. A woman is not generally capable of extreme endurance marches carrying heavy weights. If however you can find one then more power to them, I’m sure they would be welcomed as an equal.
Re the idea that the the testing is about mental toughness, sure, but you can be as mentally strong as you like, when your legs give out it counts for nothing. Yes you need a smart guy, but frankly he also needs to be a “donkey” (as someone else suggested) at times. The two go hand in hand.
I’ve worked with SF lads that are 6’6” and others that would be lucky to be 5’6”. The little guy was given no quarter, they carried the same weight and marched the same distance. Ultimately it meant that you didn’t care what the chap looked like, you knew that he could do the job as he had passed the course. If a woman can do that great. Pass the same course and crack on.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
There is also the factor that, with the army shrinking towards 72K, there is a smaller pool to select from; along with increasing demand for their use which lead David Cameron to funding a requirement to increase the size of the regiment in 2015. With the lag between decision being made and the funding and task reaching the frontline the timing seems right.
If you have a requirement for an increased output one method to achieve is to accept marginal candidates and accept the increased failure rate if it produces even only one or two more graduates at the end.
I think a lot of pilots know of the fluctuation over the years when capable students were chopped in one year and marginal ones recoursed and then passed the next.
David Cameron promises to 'beef up' the SAS to take the fight to Isil - Telegraph
If you have a requirement for an increased output one method to achieve is to accept marginal candidates and accept the increased failure rate if it produces even only one or two more graduates at the end.
I think a lot of pilots know of the fluctuation over the years when capable students were chopped in one year and marginal ones recoursed and then passed the next.
David Cameron promises to 'beef up' the SAS to take the fight to Isil - Telegraph
Last edited by ORAC; 4th Dec 2017 at 09:39.
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Cue the misogynists...
There is a role for women in SF Ops....not all women and not all SF Ops.
How the Forces properly arrive at the right combination of the two is what matters.
So long as it is Operationally driven and not politically driven then all should be fine.
But....if this is about letting Muffy wear an odd colored Beret in favor of Political Correctness...there shall be blood...real blood....and a failure of Mission with attendant casualties on our side.
Some folks are entirely predictable....and the rant shall be...when the failures start occurring is the Standards are unfair to Muffy rather than ever accepting that Muffy did not have the right stuff to quality....and down will go the standards yet again for the entirely wrong reason.
How the Forces properly arrive at the right combination of the two is what matters.
So long as it is Operationally driven and not politically driven then all should be fine.
But....if this is about letting Muffy wear an odd colored Beret in favor of Political Correctness...there shall be blood...real blood....and a failure of Mission with attendant casualties on our side.
Cue the misogynists...
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The point ORAC is, I believe making is (and I'm inclined to agree)...
Are the 'phase 1 criteria' for tabbing around Brecon job-spec criteria for physical fitness, or for mental toughness. If the latter then adjust away to achieve an equivalency. I would, however, say if the former then I have to agree with the mob. However, I'd hazard a guess and say none of us are experts in the SF selection process, so how's about we let them make their own professional decisions and trust them to make the right one to enable warfighting to take place in the safest way for our own side and the most dangerous for her majesty's enemies.
Are the 'phase 1 criteria' for tabbing around Brecon job-spec criteria for physical fitness, or for mental toughness. If the latter then adjust away to achieve an equivalency. I would, however, say if the former then I have to agree with the mob. However, I'd hazard a guess and say none of us are experts in the SF selection process, so how's about we let them make their own professional decisions and trust them to make the right one to enable warfighting to take place in the safest way for our own side and the most dangerous for her majesty's enemies.
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There is a role for women in SF Ops....not all women and not all SF Ops.
Although 'GI Jane' was Hollywood malarki, it did highlight how these things are more often than not politically motivated.
Female SAS member reveals what selection process is like | Daily Mail Online
So far woman are 0-1 with the standards held. Note the article doesn’t say she didn’t make the grade.
So far woman are 0-1 with the standards held. Note the article doesn’t say she didn’t make the grade.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
We have had a couple of SAS Selection games shows. They were run by ex-SAS and included many of the features that we as outsiders were aware of. The first was set in UK and they had to use replica weights in lieu of weapons. The second series was in Brunei or similar with local
Forces play opfor when required. They toted SLR with blank ammo. The winner was a slight wirey female who exhibited greater endurance, determination and leadership skills which culminated in a hostage rescue from a defended kampok.
A bit like the superior pilot using his superior judgement to avoid situations which require use of his superior skill.
Forces play opfor when required. They toted SLR with blank ammo. The winner was a slight wirey female who exhibited greater endurance, determination and leadership skills which culminated in a hostage rescue from a defended kampok.
A bit like the superior pilot using his superior judgement to avoid situations which require use of his superior skill.
Currently happening within the Green Berets in the US. Long term push to include women, standards lowered prior to actually formally accepting women for training. By the time they are able to start training standards allow them to pass a course that they wouldn’t have a few years before.
If it were solely about dropping the standards for women, then they'd be maintaining the (new) line with the men currently going through training. They're not - they're allowing the A-Teams to be stuffed with men who can't make the grade. If you had a particularly odd bent of mind, you might say they are doing this to prepare the teams for women, but the easier (and simpler) explanation is that this is about trying to mass produce SF.
The email can be found at
https://sofrep.com/94786/careerism-c...es-capability/
and it's opening paragraph is
SWCS has devolved into a cesspool of toxic, exploitive, biased and self-serving senior Officers who are bolstered by submissive, sycophantic, and just-as-culpable enlisted leaders. They have doggedly succeeded in two things; furthering their careers, and ensuring that Special Forces more prolific, but dangerously less capable than ever before. Shameless and immodest careerism has, in no uncertain terms, effectively destroyed our ability to assess, train, and prepare students, or to identify those students that pose very real risk to Operational Detachments. I cannot stress how systematic and severe the effects on the force will be if the standards, recently implemented here in the Special Forces Qualification Course, remain in place.
Nigerian In Law
I am reminded of the fact that in NI during “The Troubles” the security and SF required many females to “blend in” and provide intelligence and support and many girls were recruited from all three services and served on many operations where beefy military men would have been flushed out and killed in short notice. I doubt many would have passed phase 1.
NEO
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Surely if they lower the standards for training entry but maintain equal standards across the sexes for those that qualify then they are setting up a lot of people for a fall, isn't the idea for the initial testing to ensure that you have people that can cut the mustard and possible complete the course?
To take on people of either sex that fail to demonstrate the required standards upon entry to a course would possibly be throwing good monies away training people that you know have possibly not got the physical ability to attain the level required.
To take on people of either sex that fail to demonstrate the required standards upon entry to a course would possibly be throwing good monies away training people that you know have possibly not got the physical ability to attain the level required.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
West Coast, in a word, yes.
All the male wannabe would have been in the 92% that washed out.
All the male wannabe would have been in the 92% that washed out.
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There have been recent reality game shows that have had ex SF supervisors administering various tests in TV programs, where women have exhibited some pretty exceptional performances alongside male contestants.
As an ex RM I would say that some of those females would have had a very good chance of passing the commando course.
As an ex RM I would say that some of those females would have had a very good chance of passing the commando course.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Passing the course is only half of it, operational performance is the other. Were the game show contestants pushed as relentlessly as we are led to believe genuine SF candidates are? Is there as much at stake?