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New big German-French Fighter Bomber under development

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New big German-French Fighter Bomber under development

Old 6th Apr 2018, 20:49
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Much as have loved (and continue to love) working with French Mates on private contracts ,I do remember in my "European" days words of warning from an Italian mate on the metaphor of building a house.
"The French will go in with you so willingly 50/50 as you start to build the house .All sounds fine until you find they have manipulated to holding 51%. From then on it's "their" house and you find yourself increasingly then being pushed out of the door.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 21:02
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Assuming an in service date of around 2035, I’m surprised to see a cockpit. Insurance policy?
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 21:23
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What is this twin-engine low-observable aircraft in this recent BAES poster?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-...-bay-complete/

Also at slide 11 of this presentation:

https://ukdj.imgix.net/2018/02/RS710...hp-1.1.0&q=80&

Is there a 6th Gen manned fighter on the cards for 2030?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 00:33
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Originally Posted by The B Word View Post
What is this twin-engine low-observable aircraft in this recent BAES poster?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-...-bay-complete/

Also at slide 11 of this presentation:

https://ukdj.imgix.net/2018/02/RS710...hp-1.1.0&q=80&

Is there a 6th Gen manned fighter on the cards for 2030?



Dassault concept

It seems the French and Germans are discussing responsibilities, exports etc.

Meanwhile the vertical stabalizers have gone and thrust vectoring is in..
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 07:56
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They usually are at this stage - but creep back in later in the design - especially when landing on a carrier is involved.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 04:57
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https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-warplane-bid/

With nukes in mind, French officials stake out must-haves for Franco-German warplane

BERLIN — French defense officials said they will bring requirements to the future Franco-German combat aircraft that they believe are deeply connected to the country’s sovereignty: the ability to fire nuclear weapons and operate from aboard aircraft carriers. These two must-have capabilities take a special place in what will be a growing list of feature requests to be developed by analysts over the coming years. What makes them unique is that the importance Paris ascribes to them likely will place them outside of the give and take in requirements negotiations that happen in all cooperative projects.

“France has a specific policy about deterrence,” Maj. Gen. Jean-Pascal Breton, the French lead for the Future Combat Air System, told attendees at the International Fighter industry conference in Berlin. “That’s why we don’t want any countries to dictate to us what to do.”

The aerial leg of France’s strategic deterrent consists of nuclear-tipped ASMP cruise missiles, made by MBDA. The delivery aircraft — special versions of the Rafale and Mirage — will be phased out in place of the future Franco-German aerial weapon. Meanwhile, France’s desired carrier-operations capability comes with specific design requirements for how planes take off and land on short runways at sea.

French defense officials also hope to incorporate dedicated combat drones into the mix of Future Combat Air System platforms, which France has studied together with the United Kingdom for years. Those carrier-capable unmanned aircraft would be bigger than the drones envisioned to be swarming around the main, manned aircraft, and their task would be striking targets deep behind enemy lines.

Germany needs none of those features. Still, officials from both countries here at the conference insisted the diverging requirements would be sorted out amicably as the program progresses........

Analysts are currently toying with four variants for the main, manned, combat aircraft, which is called the next-generation fighter, or NGF, in French FCAS lingo, Breton said. Each boasts specific strengths, like maneuverability in one case. It is unclear, however, how many distinct versions there will be in the end, he stressed, as Germany and France each fine-tune their visions.

Spain is expected to formally join the project soon. The plan is to have Madrid sign similar cooperation documents as Berlin and Paris have already inked, including a finalized, high-level requirements document in the next few months.........

While Dassault will be in charge of the central combat aircraft, as agreed by all, Airbus has claimed the lead for the so-called “system of systems” for the entire project. The term refers to the sensor and command connections linking all FCAS components as part of what Airbus calls the “Combat Cloud Ecosystem.” That piece is considered the secret sauce meant to turn a bunch of flying objects into a highly autonomous, lethal and coordinated weapon.

Asked about the industrial leadership for the “system of systems” going to Airbus — as opposed to Thales, France’s go-to electronics vendor for the domestic military market — Breton thought for a moment and smiled. “There will be a European answer,” he said.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 11:30
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Com'on folks,

Jezza will sort it out and then Vlad will supply us with a few of his surplus Mig Whatevas
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 12:33
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Germany has not paid much attention to its military, as the current low serviceability of its forces demonstrates. So it is a big ask to expect their political leadership to provide any coherent input to set future equipment requirements.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 15:43
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Originally Posted by The B Word View Post
What is this twin-engine low-observable aircraft in this recent BAES poster?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-...-bay-complete/

Also at slide 11 of this presentation:

https://ukdj.imgix.net/2018/02/RS710...hp-1.1.0&q=80&

Is there a 6th Gen manned fighter on the cards for 2030?
Interesting post in the light of what was revealed as the Tempest project later in the year
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 18:17
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It can support the EU army, that we were promised wouldn’t exist.

Fake news mannn
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 15:05
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via Janes.

France and Germany have agreed to progress development of a next-generation combat aircraft, with an announcement on 20 November that both countries are to launch demonstrator design studies next year.

The announcement was made on Twitter by French defence minister Florence Parly, who said the agreement she signed in June with her German counterpart, Ursula von der Leyen, to approve the next-generation combat aircraft project had now been firmed up with a commitment to begin the formal design of aircraft and powerplant demonstrators in 2019.

"In June, France and Germany decided to develop, together, the combat aircraft of the future. [There was a] decisive step today with the agreement to begin the studies of architecture and design and the launch of demonstrators (aircraft and engine) by mid-2019. It's moving!", Parly tweeted.
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 17:05
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This is all smoke and mirrors until each country actually commits funds and assigns development responsibilities.
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Old 20th Jan 2019, 08:05
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 01:40
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So France want a platform that has nuclear capability and can operate off carriers. This is completely at odds with German requirements. A perfect scenario. Let them waste massive amounts of money trying to fulfil the impossible brief. Let’s not forget, they are our economic rivals.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 09:39
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So France want a platform that has nuclear capability and can operate off carriers.
I don't think that France has yet decided if the carrier mission will be performed by the Next-Generation Fighter, or by a sub-variant of it. I understand that Dassault has put together 4 design concepts that are currently being worked through.

Let’s not forget, they are our economic rivals.
Any country offering an aircraft to the same market in which the UK is competing has always been our 'economic rival', EU or not (which I assume was the underlying message behind that comment).
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 10:49
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The Jane's video, with the impressive Gareth Jennings fronting, does say that France has been looking at 4 design concepts.

I find it interesting that French attention seems to have switched from the finless, tailless Delta shown in the original Dassault 'Wings for Europe' video



Dasault 'Wings for Europe' video concept

and in model form at Euronaval



New Generation Fighter concept at Euronavale

to a twin-finned design more reminiscent of the original Airbus study.



French twin-finned concept



Original concept unveiled by Airbus


original Airbus concept
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 12:22
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There has been talk of both the European projects being amalgamated into one, but I can't see why a continent with the highest GDP on the planet cannot sustain two separate future fighter programmes.

For sure they will take market share from each other in the international export market, but so what? That already happens with the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen and yet all three projects have secured export sales and have each sustained themselves and the defence aerospace expertise of their respective nations.

Besides, I can't see either the French/Germans or the UK giving way.

Thoughts?
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 13:14
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Originally Posted by Mil-26Man View Post
...Thoughts?
the initial one is that the Germans won't pony up. a 6th gen aircraft that can do all of the things the various parties need it to do is going to be buttock-clenchingly expensive, and these countries haven't built a 5th gen aircraft yet.

the next thought is that if the Germans do pony up the development money for an aircraft that can do everything and claim the workshare, they will then back out when it comes to actually buying airframes - and the French will be left holding the €1bn each unit cost.

the thought after that is that the cost of getting 2 or 3 different/seperate aircraft types out of one aircraft 'system' - or perhaps more likely, starting off with 2 or three different types, merging them into one, and then seperating them out again for production - is going to make the F-35 look like a craft session for my 4yo.

the swinger is carrier operations - if that requirement gets ditched than it all becomes a bit more doable, though that would be difficult politically because then France becomes just another military power within the EU, and the EU as a whole goes out of the carrier strike business.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 14:12
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the initial one is that the Germans won't pony up. a 6th gen aircraft that can do all of the things the various parties need it to do is going to be buttock-clenchingly expensive, and these countries haven't built a 5th gen aircraft yet.
This is all true, but could just as easily be said about the UK and Tempest.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 14:48
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Originally Posted by cokecan View Post
the initial one is that the Germans won't pony up. a 6th gen aircraft that can do all of the things the various parties need it to do is going to be buttock-clenchingly expensive, and these countries haven't built a 5th gen aircraft yet.
Presumably reunification costs aren't there to influence the situation anymore, though?
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