Linton-on-Ouse Sqn Re-Numbering
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Sorry BEagle, think you`re way off the mark here.
Just because the Tucano can't drop bombs doesn't mean the guys at Linton shouldn't have the opportunity to belong to a proper RAF Sqn with battle honours etc.
You say it's a sham, how exactly? So they can't drop bombs and kill people, neither can a helicopter (not strictly true, I know). Do you have to be a steely eyed killer to belong to a real squadron?
I for one will be proud to belong on a Sqn with a tremendous heritage such as 72 or 207, and I don't see how I would be "debasing their illustrious history."
Just because the Tucano can't drop bombs doesn't mean the guys at Linton shouldn't have the opportunity to belong to a proper RAF Sqn with battle honours etc.
You say it's a sham, how exactly? So they can't drop bombs and kill people, neither can a helicopter (not strictly true, I know). Do you have to be a steely eyed killer to belong to a real squadron?
I for one will be proud to belong on a Sqn with a tremendous heritage such as 72 or 207, and I don't see how I would be "debasing their illustrious history."
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It's probably a cheap attempt at political gain by the labouriously ***** government to spin the yarn of having more RAF Sqns than when it took over in 1997. Spinning means something totally different in my book! We must have a govt full of W*****s...
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Linton Wing
Rotadish
Was your dad on the Linton wing when "Silly Billy" took them on a balbo around UK and ran them out of gas? Two guys landed double flame-out at Sherburn -in- Elmet (I believe) at the same time, from opposite ends of the same runway. One of them bleated on the VHF "You keep Left, mate, and I'll keep Right!"
Was your dad on the Linton wing when "Silly Billy" took them on a balbo around UK and ran them out of gas? Two guys landed double flame-out at Sherburn -in- Elmet (I believe) at the same time, from opposite ends of the same runway. One of them bleated on the VHF "You keep Left, mate, and I'll keep Right!"
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Beagle
I hear yor comments but from a historical point of view is it not better to have the history memorobilia in a Sqn (albeit a training one) and the silver in the Mess rather than the dark bowels of the Air Historical Branch never seeing the light of day?
I wrote a Service Paper in 1991 recommending this and am pleased to see it has finally happened. We probably have to agree to differ I suspect. Nice work on the NPPL by the way. Rgds
I hear yor comments but from a historical point of view is it not better to have the history memorobilia in a Sqn (albeit a training one) and the silver in the Mess rather than the dark bowels of the Air Historical Branch never seeing the light of day?
I wrote a Service Paper in 1991 recommending this and am pleased to see it has finally happened. We probably have to agree to differ I suspect. Nice work on the NPPL by the way. Rgds
Last edited by Broken Wings; 18th Jul 2002 at 10:39.
BW - thanks. It will be available from 30 July 02. There will be some accreditation benefits for Service pilots, navs and air engineers if the full item makes it past Parliament - rather better than for the JAR-FCL PPL, you'll probably find.
Still think that 'real' squadron numbers should not be reacivated for training units. Sorry. Remember the outrage expressed by the Hunter Heroes when '8' was allocated to the AEW Shacklebomber squadron? I wonder what those who were fighting in the Battle of Britain would think about their squadron number being adopted by an outfit teaching BFTS students?
"Did 50 missions in that lot. Straight and Level 1, Medium Turns......"
Still think that 'real' squadron numbers should not be reacivated for training units. Sorry. Remember the outrage expressed by the Hunter Heroes when '8' was allocated to the AEW Shacklebomber squadron? I wonder what those who were fighting in the Battle of Britain would think about their squadron number being adopted by an outfit teaching BFTS students?
"Did 50 missions in that lot. Straight and Level 1, Medium Turns......"
Laughed my cock off.
In the bar at Linton-on-Booze the other night and spotted the alternative 72 Sqn badge on the arm of an ex-rotary mate (only Pumas though, can't have everything:-) heard the stories about re-namings etc.
The irony........one of my many 'first tourist, one-way interviews with OC 72 at the time was because I got Bill Brookes to make some alternative badges (the original design that was turned down by the Air Force Board). Needless-to-say, they sold like hot cakes and provided FOLA with much needed funds to help fight 'the Cause' .
To think that I could be posted back onto '72' Sqn as a fixed-wg instructor..........................
as I said......feeble excuse to get pi55ed but I was crying with laughter:-)
In the bar at Linton-on-Booze the other night and spotted the alternative 72 Sqn badge on the arm of an ex-rotary mate (only Pumas though, can't have everything:-) heard the stories about re-namings etc.
The irony........one of my many 'first tourist, one-way interviews with OC 72 at the time was because I got Bill Brookes to make some alternative badges (the original design that was turned down by the Air Force Board). Needless-to-say, they sold like hot cakes and provided FOLA with much needed funds to help fight 'the Cause' .
To think that I could be posted back onto '72' Sqn as a fixed-wg instructor..........................
as I said......feeble excuse to get pi55ed but I was crying with laughter:-)
BEagle
One point you are missing from this debate is that the re-numbered squadrons will not just be manned solely by fast jet students but their instructors as well. It is not inconceivable that these instructors may well have many more fast jet hours than you, including operations, and would welcome being a member of a 'proper' sqn again rather than 1 or 2 Sqn, BFJTS.
One point you are missing from this debate is that the re-numbered squadrons will not just be manned solely by fast jet students but their instructors as well. It is not inconceivable that these instructors may well have many more fast jet hours than you, including operations, and would welcome being a member of a 'proper' sqn again rather than 1 or 2 Sqn, BFJTS.
So you're inferring it's a sop to keep delicate egos happy? Sorry, but the poor little lambs are now doing a BFTS QFI tour. Period.
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one thing you've got to remember is that linton is the only way into the fast jet world. All our future fast jet mates will have to go through linton before flying a real "fast" jet. Cut us some slack and let us have some real identity.We should be a real Sqn as 72(R)Sqn did the business and the closest thing you'll get to a spitfire in the RAF today is a Tucano- so there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rotajet
The West Raynham incident was later and separate, involving Hunters from CFE - the DFLS I believe. The Linton episode involved Meteors. About 36 of them! Not an aircraft was scratched.
The West Raynham incident was later and separate, involving Hunters from CFE - the DFLS I believe. The Linton episode involved Meteors. About 36 of them! Not an aircraft was scratched.
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BEagle, 3 points
Firstly, your last post was at best unworthy and basically insulting to the QFIs at Linton.
Secondly, take a look at the sentiments expressed here and have the bottle to admit you are essentially in a majority of one on this issue.
Thirdly, please take your soapbox to other threads where you can air your populistic but totally unworkabe campaigns (eg Must Reopen Chivenor Again, More Money for Everything etc) to your hearts content.
Firstly, your last post was at best unworthy and basically insulting to the QFIs at Linton.
Secondly, take a look at the sentiments expressed here and have the bottle to admit you are essentially in a majority of one on this issue.
Thirdly, please take your soapbox to other threads where you can air your populistic but totally unworkabe campaigns (eg Must Reopen Chivenor Again, More Money for Everything etc) to your hearts content.
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BEags
You seem to be taking some flak here as the minority view. I have some sympathy here because you are not the only one that holds the view that trg sqns should not degrade "real" sqn numbers - presumably, that's why it has taken Linton so long to achieve the honour of receiving the 72 & 207 numberplates. However, I am pleased that you are the minority and that these outstanding Sqns will live on rather than be consigned to a dusty storeroom in Stafford. I was a member of 72 too many years ago and although I regret it's demise as an operational Sqn, I am delighted that it will be kept alive in some form.
Having just read a little of these respective Sqns history, I was surprised to note that 72 Sqn was originally formed in 1917 from a Flt of CFS and that its first role, albeit briefly, was as a pilot trg sqn - I wonder if there were stick-in-the-mud objectors such as you in those days?
I too have visited Linton recently and was impressed by the way the vast majority of staff and studes are looking forward to the transition to becoming a "real sqn". Nothing wrong with a bit of military pride and ethos at an early stage eh.
p.s. Does anybody know if that original "altera potatio non nocebit" crest still exists?
You seem to be taking some flak here as the minority view. I have some sympathy here because you are not the only one that holds the view that trg sqns should not degrade "real" sqn numbers - presumably, that's why it has taken Linton so long to achieve the honour of receiving the 72 & 207 numberplates. However, I am pleased that you are the minority and that these outstanding Sqns will live on rather than be consigned to a dusty storeroom in Stafford. I was a member of 72 too many years ago and although I regret it's demise as an operational Sqn, I am delighted that it will be kept alive in some form.
Having just read a little of these respective Sqns history, I was surprised to note that 72 Sqn was originally formed in 1917 from a Flt of CFS and that its first role, albeit briefly, was as a pilot trg sqn - I wonder if there were stick-in-the-mud objectors such as you in those days?
I too have visited Linton recently and was impressed by the way the vast majority of staff and studes are looking forward to the transition to becoming a "real sqn". Nothing wrong with a bit of military pride and ethos at an early stage eh.
p.s. Does anybody know if that original "altera potatio non nocebit" crest still exists?
Information on the 'Original' crest was gleaned from the 'Behind the hangar doors' book (I've got a copy but it's downstairs and I'm up in the attic at the mo so can't tell you the name of the author just now!)
I had to design a copy for Bill Brookes to do his magic, which was then used for publicity purposes around the sqn. All posters were then removed by the Boss and I was ordered to go around the province and remove any traces of it (along with copies of FOLA news). Considering he had just down-graded me to LCR such a lacking in OQs, I informed him that I would not be able to carry out his order until daylight. I was then promptly up-graded to CRN again so I could go and waste scarce flying hours to carry out his wishes - then LCR'd. Yep, he was a complete aarrrssee!
Hopefully, a new stock will be ordered when the sqn re-emerges and I'm sure the badge will prove as popular as ever.
It's not a swipe at sqn execs, just a harmless token of historical recognition.
I had to design a copy for Bill Brookes to do his magic, which was then used for publicity purposes around the sqn. All posters were then removed by the Boss and I was ordered to go around the province and remove any traces of it (along with copies of FOLA news). Considering he had just down-graded me to LCR such a lacking in OQs, I informed him that I would not be able to carry out his order until daylight. I was then promptly up-graded to CRN again so I could go and waste scarce flying hours to carry out his wishes - then LCR'd. Yep, he was a complete aarrrssee!
Hopefully, a new stock will be ordered when the sqn re-emerges and I'm sure the badge will prove as popular as ever.
It's not a swipe at sqn execs, just a harmless token of historical recognition.
Gentleman Aviator
Don't know if it was the original "altera potatio ...." crest, but there used to be what was certainly a very old one in the ground floor "Gentleman's Bar" in the RAF Club. Haven't been there recently so don't know if it's still there......
You had to get quite close to see there was a "72" on the tankard, and I think that the "bumf" actually had a form number on it......
You had to get quite close to see there was a "72" on the tankard, and I think that the "bumf" actually had a form number on it......
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Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter (and I think it's mostly right, by the way) I must ask the question - why 207??
Surely 74 would have been a better numberplate? It was even a training unit in its last incarnation, and we have missed a golden opportunity to get the premier "Tiger" squadron back in business.
Surely 74 would have been a better numberplate? It was even a training unit in its last incarnation, and we have missed a golden opportunity to get the premier "Tiger" squadron back in business.
Chairborne,
To a certain extent, seniority will be the justification. Their airships drew up a list of numberplates by seniority (although the records don't show how they arrived at their conclusions!) in 1968. 207 came in at number 27 then. Although it disbanded in 1984, it'll still remain ahead in terms of seniority above any other plates (including 74 - 207 was senior in 68; 74 went for 13 years between 71 and 84 while 207 remained extant; then caught up between '84 and '92 when on the F-4, but didn't overtake.
72 was behind a number of other units that have disappeared from view since 68, but will most probably have overtaken them. Thus the plates are the next two most senior available for use.
Following on from this, it seems that 74 may have a chance of appearing as the ASTOR unit or as a Typhoon (as we are now allowed to call it...) unit. That said, this presupposes that their airships down-declare and disband F3 and Jag units as outlined in JN's piece on Typhoon recently, and that the principles in place in 1968 are being adhered to.
Also, one or more of their airships may well have served with 74, and be carefully saving the plate for a Typhoon unit and bu$$er any principles for preserving plates!
To a certain extent, seniority will be the justification. Their airships drew up a list of numberplates by seniority (although the records don't show how they arrived at their conclusions!) in 1968. 207 came in at number 27 then. Although it disbanded in 1984, it'll still remain ahead in terms of seniority above any other plates (including 74 - 207 was senior in 68; 74 went for 13 years between 71 and 84 while 207 remained extant; then caught up between '84 and '92 when on the F-4, but didn't overtake.
72 was behind a number of other units that have disappeared from view since 68, but will most probably have overtaken them. Thus the plates are the next two most senior available for use.
Following on from this, it seems that 74 may have a chance of appearing as the ASTOR unit or as a Typhoon (as we are now allowed to call it...) unit. That said, this presupposes that their airships down-declare and disband F3 and Jag units as outlined in JN's piece on Typhoon recently, and that the principles in place in 1968 are being adhered to.
Also, one or more of their airships may well have served with 74, and be carefully saving the plate for a Typhoon unit and bu$$er any principles for preserving plates!
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Firstly, let me state that I'm pretty ambivalent towards the idea of giving training units resurrected number plates, obviously the studes and instructors will love it. However, are these 'real' squadrons? Do the LOZ sqns have RAF or civilian groundcrew to help with the military ethos? Do they work from a pooled line or have separate sqn engineering identities? If it's just the aircrew that are part of the 'new' squadron identity then it's not really a squadron at all and perhaps it would be better to stick to the original arrangement after all, a squadron is more than just the aircrew.
PS For the record, I am NOT of an engineering background!!!
PS For the record, I am NOT of an engineering background!!!
Gentleman Aviator
Archimedes
You are right about seniority - it is easily determined by the number of years a squadron has been "active"; ie, not reserve or disbanded. There's really a "Premier League" and the rest, depending on whether or not the sqn disbanded between WWI and WWII. That's how 230 survived in NI and not 72.
But to return to 72, as I mentioned in a post at the time of the "Swift Farewell", I heard a buzz that CINC STC had a cunning plan to ressurrect "his" sqn as a Typhoon unit. Could this be a stepping stone..........? And why not!
You are right about seniority - it is easily determined by the number of years a squadron has been "active"; ie, not reserve or disbanded. There's really a "Premier League" and the rest, depending on whether or not the sqn disbanded between WWI and WWII. That's how 230 survived in NI and not 72.
But to return to 72, as I mentioned in a post at the time of the "Swift Farewell", I heard a buzz that CINC STC had a cunning plan to ressurrect "his" sqn as a Typhoon unit. Could this be a stepping stone..........? And why not!
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Rotary training goes from JEFTS to 660, 705 and 60 Sqn.
Multis get 45 Sqn after JEFTS (I believe).
FJ was the only route to go to a non-Sqn FTS post-JEFTS - nothing until Valley and 208 Sqn. I see no reason why they shouldn't go to a proper Sqn post JEFTS and, if it keeps the Sqn spirit alive and improves the morale of the chaps going through training, generating a bit of Sqn loyalty and some inter-Sqn banter, then I am all for it.
Ta muchly
PTT
(A rotary bod)
Multis get 45 Sqn after JEFTS (I believe).
FJ was the only route to go to a non-Sqn FTS post-JEFTS - nothing until Valley and 208 Sqn. I see no reason why they shouldn't go to a proper Sqn post JEFTS and, if it keeps the Sqn spirit alive and improves the morale of the chaps going through training, generating a bit of Sqn loyalty and some inter-Sqn banter, then I am all for it.
Ta muchly
PTT
(A rotary bod)