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Old 19th Sep 2017, 10:09   #21 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
Hardly - Qatar made it clear that they needed 72 new fighters to replace their 12 Mirage 2000s, and that they hoped to get three different types from three different suppliers.

Didn't know if the numbers of F15s ordered have been revealed, but the FMS request was for up to 72 - I'd assumed they were going for 24 Rafales and 48 F15s.

Bit like the Saudis in the 80/90ss, buying F15s and Tornados. If one supplier objects politically to your use of aircraft, just use the ones from another supplier.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 10:15   #22 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Who is BAe and what do they have to do with the Typhoon??

PDR
Industrial/commercial Lead on the Qatar Typhoon campaign, and prime contractor on the Saudi Typhoon programme - which was a Government to Government deal. This was a BAE campaign, not an EF GmbH campaign.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 10:16   #23 (permalink)
 
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Typhoon deal strengthens UK-Qatar Defence relationship

https://www.facebook.com/aerospacean...59920344214126

Major news sources judge Qatari Typhoon deal surprising – Aerospace Analysis & Insight was expecting it all along!

https://www.facebook.com/aerospacean...59722900900537
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 10:23   #24 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Davef68 View Post
Didn't know if the numbers of F15s ordered have been revealed, but the FMS request was for up to 72 - I'd assumed they were going for 24 Rafales and 48 F15s.

Bit like the Saudis in the 80/90ss, buying F15s and Tornados. If one supplier objects politically to your use of aircraft, just use the ones from another supplier.
24 Rafales plus 12 options
36 F-15QAs plus 36 options - this was the big surprise - as it wasn't 24 again
24 Typhoons plus undisclosed options

That's 84 aircraft, when the total requirement was originally 72. Maybe they think they need 7 Squadrons, not just six?
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 10:29   #25 (permalink)
 
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Major news sources judge Qatari Typhoon deal surprising Aerospace Analysis & Insight was expecting it all along!
I guess it is surprising as there is absolutely no operational value in fielding three almost identical (at least in terms of role) fighter types, and neither is there any industrial value for Qatar.

Being Middle East focused Jackonicko, I guess you have a better insight into the vagaries of their thinking.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 18:56   #26 (permalink)
 
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I guess it is surprising as there is absolutely no operational value in fielding three almost identical (at least in terms of role) fighter types
Mind you, they will be able to tell us which one is actually best.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 22:08   #27 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
I guess it is surprising as there is absolutely no operational value in fielding three almost identical (at least in terms of role) fighter types, and neither is there any industrial value for Qatar.

Being Middle East focused Jackonicko, I guess you have a better insight into the vagaries of their thinking.
Qatar's industrial capabilities are very limited, but three lots of offsets/participation, etc. will be better than one.

Three different centres of decision making if Qatar does anything to provoke sanctions.

Three lots of goodwill, invitations for exercise participation and training courses.

And there are some subtle but important capability differences between the three aircraft - Rafale with its heavy precision stand off weapons capability and recce pod. F-15QA with a great payload/range capability. Typhoon may bring with it some Mission Data capabilities for the QEAF, as well as Meteor, Brimstone and Storm Shadow.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 09:17   #28 (permalink)
 
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Qatar's industrial capabilities are very limited, but three lots of offsets/participation, etc. will be better than one.

Three different centres of decision making if Qatar does anything to provoke sanctions.
Then why stop at three? Why not order some Sukhois/MiGs and get the Russians onside also?

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Three lots of goodwill, invitations for exercise participation and training courses.
You don't need to buy a new fighter type to get goodwill and training opportunities. Countries train with other countries because it is in their strategic interests to do so, and the US/UK/France will train with Qatar so long as it is in their interests to do so. Israel doesn't get invited to Red Flag because it flies Falcons and Eagles.

If goodwill and training opportunities are the objective (and, as you say, Qatar needs to buy another country's kit to get these), then surely buy something that makes operational sense - like a frigate or some tanks. Why buy a third and superfluous fighter type?

Quote:
And there are some subtle but important capability differences between the three aircraft - Rafale with its heavy precision stand off weapons capability and recce pod. F-15QA with a great payload/range capability. Typhoon may bring with it some Mission Data capabilities for the QEAF, as well as Meteor, Brimstone and Storm Shadow.
Each of these aircraft have essentially the same roles and the same capabilities, albeit with some minor differences as to what weapons types they currently carry. If a country wants a particular weapons capability, then it makes more sense to pay for the OEM to integrate it onto an aircraft they already have or have selected, rather than to go out and buy an entirely new type again.

That said, under current planning the Typhoon is to get the same heavy precision stand off weapons capability and recce pod capability as the Rafale now has, so again why buy them both? And what does Qatar need with the F-15QA's increased range (and if range is important, they have MRTTs to extend the range of the Rafale or Typhoon).

And the argument that money is no object to Qatar doesn't really hold either, as they could use that money to pay for the weapons integration rather than buy an unnecessary third fighter type.

There is nothing logical about Qatar's decision to field three fighter types.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 09:32   #29 (permalink)
 
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Their perception is that the marginal extra cost is outweighed by the advantages.

That's logical.

To them.

And it was logical to Saudi when they bought F-15SA and Typhoon….. and Kuwait when they opted for Super Hornet and Typhoon. And arguably to Oman, too…..
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 09:33   #30 (permalink)
 
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And it was logical to Saudi when they bought F-15SA and Typhoon…..
But not F-15SA and Typhoon and Rafale.

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and Kuwait when they opted for Super Hornet and Typhoon
But not Super Hornet and Typhoon and Rafale.

Quote:
And arguably to Oman, too…..
But not Typhoon and F-16 and Rafale/Eagle/Super Hornet

There is a reason all of these countries you cite have not procured three overlapping fighter types - it makes no sense to do so.

Last edited by melmothtw; 20th Sep 2017 at 09:44.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 11:23   #31 (permalink)
 
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Maybe they want an insight into the three main types likely to be deployed against them by their neighbours
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 12:09   #32 (permalink)
 
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Maybe they want an insight into the three main types likely to be deployed against them by their neighbours
The world's first all-Aggressor air force. Seems legit.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 14:41   #33 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
Israel doesn't get invited to Red Flag because it flies Falcons and Eagles.
Wrong. The Israeli AF has been invited to and flown both it's F-15s and F-16s in several Red Flag exercises...

-RP
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 14:48   #34 (permalink)
 
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Wrong. The Israeli AF has been invited to and flown both it's F-15s and F-16s in several Red Flag exercises...

-RP
Thanks Rhino, I know that. My point was that Israel is not invited to Red Flag because it flies F-15s and F-16s. It is invited because it is in the interests of the US to do so.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 11:58   #35 (permalink)
 
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Qatar exercise their option to purchase a further 12 Rafale, taking the total on order to 36.

https://globenewswire.com/news-relea...12-Rafale.html

I heard the 24 Typhoons for Qatar are going to come from Approved Used stock (presumably ex-RAF), after an 'upgrade' and re-paint presumably.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 12:55   #36 (permalink)
 
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With a population of only 3M, are they going to find enough competent pilots?
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 20:41   #37 (permalink)
 
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Of course. They'll employ the likes of me.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 21:00   #38 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Speedywheels View Post
Qatar exercise their option to purchase a further 12 Rafale, taking the total on order to 36.

https://globenewswire.com/news-relea...12-Rafale.html

I heard the 24 Typhoons for Qatar are going to come from Approved Used stock (presumably ex-RAF), after an 'upgrade' and re-paint presumably.
Pure AD then?
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 21:49   #39 (permalink)
 
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BWOS are stating they will be new build, therefore keeping the production line trickling until 2024. Presumably they will also have the AESA radar also.
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Old 7th Dec 2017, 23:41   #40 (permalink)
 
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Does anyone know which helmet(s) the pilots will be using for the jet?
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