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S400s for Turkey

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S400s for Turkey

Old 12th Sep 2017, 16:04
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S400s for Turkey

Turkey signs Russian missile defence deal


The Kremlin has confirmed Russia and Turkey have signed a contract for Ankara to purchase the Russian-made S-400 missile defence system.
"The contract has been signed and is being prepared to be fulfilled," Vladimir Kozhin, an aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said in comments carried by state news agency TASS. "I can assure that all the decisions made for this contract strictly comply with our strategic interests," Kozhin told TASS.


That last is a wonderful understatement, selling Russian weapon systems to a NATO ally (particularly that system and that ally), while NATO continues a programme to encourage former WarPac members to get rid of their Russian equipment!
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 16:25
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Turkey has a bit of history when it comes to having feet in both camps.

OAP
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 17:32
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Excellent, an opportunity to get the Techies in there to see how it really works!
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 21:55
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Originally Posted by Melchett01 View Post
Excellent, an opportunity to get the Techies in there to see how it really works!
I will put good money that part of the contract has a Russian overview when the system is deployed.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 22:57
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That should make Cyprus interesting even if they are based on the Turkish mainland!!
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 09:00
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I wonder where Erdogan got the money for his new toys.
No, wait....
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 10:53
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Interesting reversal of the situation back in 2000 when Greece bought 2 batteries of SA20 (S300PMU1) and threatened to put them on Cyprus. Turkey claimed that not only were they a threat to their aircraft, but that the missiles could also be used against Turkish land targets!
After a lot of negotiation, the missiles ended up on Crete instead.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 13:02
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Originally Posted by Red Line Entry View Post
Interesting reversal of the situation back in 2000 when Greece bought 2 batteries of SA20 (S300PMU1) and threatened to put them on Cyprus. Turkey claimed that not only were they a threat to their aircraft, but that the missiles could also be used against Turkish land targets!
After a lot of negotiation, the missiles ended up on Crete instead.

Too true, but the political dynamics between NATO and Russia are very different now than they were in 2000. That's not to say that there aren't regional parallels between the two events, but the implications for the Alliance are much greater now than then. Article 13 on the way perhaps (though I very much doubt it)?


"What matters for NATO is that the equipment allies acquire is able to operate together... No NATO ally currently operates the S-400," a NATO official told dpa.


http://www.news.com.au/world/breakin...b8e9964b1d2434

Last edited by skippedonce; 13th Sep 2017 at 14:27.
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 08:45
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US lawmaker: Turkey's purchase of Russian missile system may trigger sanctions - POLITICO

Turkey’s recent purchase of an advanced Russian anti-air weapons system may have violated a U.S. law that would require an automatic imposition of sanctions on the NATO member, a top U.S. Democratic lawmaker said Thursday.

The letter, sent by Maryland Senator Ben Cardin to Trump administration officials, warns that Ankara’s purchase of Moscow’s S-400 air defense system, finalized Tuesday, violates congressional sanctions against Russia signed into law last month. The legislation imposes sanctions “on any person that conducts a significant transaction with the Russian Federation’s defense or intelligence sectors,” wrote Cardin, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The Trump White House resisted the sanctions as a congressional intrusion on presidential diplomacy.

“These are mandatory sanctions and constitute a commitment by the United States to deter Russia from attacking the United States and its allies in the future,” said Cardin’s letter to Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Treasury Secretary Steve Munchin. “As a U.S. ally, it is unfortunate that Turkey has appeared to align itself with Moscow during this critical time,” Cardin added.

The S-400 is Russia’s most advanced anti-air missile system and was originally designed to intercept U.S. strategic aircraft. It has a range of nearly 250 miles and can reportedly hit 80 targets at once. Kremlin-funded media outlets like RT and Sputnik have trumpeted the deal as a diplomatic coup. In recent months, Moscow has worked to woo Turkey — a NATO member since 1952 — away from its Western military allies.

NATO officials have expressed unease about the $2.5 billion deal, both for its diplomatic implications and because of the introduction of Russian technology into the military hardware of a member state. No NATO country currently operates the system. An alliance spokesperson said it had not been informed about the details of the purchase but emphasized “It is up to allies to decide what military equipment they buy.”

In Ankara on Wednesday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said NATO had only itself to blame because it has been slow to provide his country with requisite weapons systems. NATO “went crazy just because we made the S-400 deal,” Erdoğan said, according to Turkish media. “What were we supposed to do? Wait for you? We are taking care of ourselves.” The Turkish leader acknowledged a deposit had been paid for the system, whose full price tag is $2.5 billion.

The State Department said the purchase would not meet NATO standards of having interoperable equipment among allies but stopped short of discussing potential repercussions. On Tuesday, State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert called the purchase “inconsistent” with a 2016 agreement to phase out Soviet-era military equipment among NATO allies.

The Pentagon also expressed concern over the purchase. “We have relayed our concerns to Turkish officials regarding the potential purchase of the S-400,” Pentagon spokesman Johnny Michael said in a statement. “A NATO interoperable missile defense system remains the best option to defend Turkey from the full range of threats in the region.”

Cardin asked the administration to assess how the purchase might affect Turkey’s NATO membership as well as U.S. security assistance to Ankara, which includes arms sales. A freeze on U.S. weapons sale to Turkey was a topic of discussion at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing last week.
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 21:37
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“What were we supposed to do? Wait for you? We are taking care of ourselves.” The Turkish leader acknowledged a deposit had been paid for the system, whose full price tag is $2.5 billion.
I can see his PoV on this, even if I don't care for the man.
State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert called the purchase “inconsistent” with a 2016 agreement to phase out Soviet-era military equipment among NATO allies.
The Greeks and Turks weren't the only NATO members who failed to hold up their agreements in NATO, in my experience ... but they seemed to be regular offenders.
“A NATO interoperable missile defense system remains the best option to defend Turkey from the full range of threats in the region.”
He's right, and the sorry state of C2 organic to Turkey argues for the practical side of that observation, however, this is about politics.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 14:25
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Turkey boasting of ability of their S400 mx to shoot down American and NATO aircraft......

Turkish state media boasts about new missile, ability to shoot down US aircraft

WASHINGTON — Turkey’s state run news agency Anadolu on Wednesday published an infographic showcasing the capabilities of the country’s new Russian-acquired S-400 missile defense system — and its ability to shoot down U.S. aircraft.

The graphic from the NATO ally’s news agency explains that the new S-400 can hit targets at 400 km away at 4.8 km per second. The infographic also says it can eliminate U.S. aircraft such as the B-52 Stratofortress, B-1 Lancer, F-15, F-16, F-22 Raptor, and several other high tech U.S. aircraft........



Earlier this month, Turkey signed a deal with Russia to acquire the new S-400 air defense system from Russia, in yet another sign of Ankara’s pivot away from its NATO allies, according to a report from the BBC.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 16:20
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post

The graphic from the NATO ally’s news agency explains that the new S-400 can hit targets at 400 km away at 4.8 km per second. The infographic also says it can eliminate U.S. aircraft such as the B-52 Stratofortress, B-1 Lancer, F-15, F-16, F-22 Raptor, and several other high tech U.S. aircraft........
That is just an adaptation of an old graphic originally from Russian sources. Just journalists being lazy and re-using/re-hashing it. Blimey the EF-111A Raven was retired in 1998 and they are still using it in such graphics!

https://sputniknews.com/infographics...9261027578863/
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 16:21
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The S-400 is so good it can travel back in time.

I'm scared.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 15:14
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Quote:
State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert called the purchase “inconsistent” with a 2016 agreement to phase out Soviet-era military equipment among NATO allies.
The Greeks and Turks weren't the only NATO members who failed to hold up their agreements in NATO, in my experience ... but they seemed to be regular offenders.
Is the S400 system "Soviet-era military equipment?" Personally, I think not. So DoS's objection notwithstanding, I don't see how this purchase violates that agreement. And S400 is far superior to Patriot. Indeed S400 is in an entirely different class than Patriot and arguably even superior to Patriot and THAAD put together. The closest system we have to S400 is Aegis ashore. Were we willing to sell Turkey Aegis ashore?
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 20:08
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Originally Posted by KenV View Post
S400 is in an entirely different class than Patriot and arguably even superior to Patriot and THAAD put together
Is this so? Only a few weeks back the Israelis struck targets c.50km from the Russian airfield in Syria with apparent impunity
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 07:29
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Is this so? Only a few weeks back the Israelis struck targets c.50km from the Russian airfield in Syria with apparent impunity


Even if it were 5 km they would not react because it is part of Israel-Syria "bilateral issues" (having roots back in late 60's), where Russia does not intervene. They are not mixed with the war again IS and other terrorist groups.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 09:53
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I've been watching this story develop and I have sympathy for Turkey. They have been in negotiations for almost 20 years to acquire Patriot systems and have got nowhere from the US. They have started to look at co-production and technology transfer of the S-400 and subject to financing, Turkey will buy several systems before producing them for internal use and for export. But it's not a done deal. Technology transfer needs to be agreed and there is the issue of funding...

Meanwhile on 14 July, at the French Embassy reception, the (now previous) Turkish Defence Minister announced a contract with EUROSAM to co-develop and new A2AD system with Italian and French companies, for a system that (might) roll out in the late 2020s.

There is no evidence of Turkey turning their back on NATO (in spite of some fairly sensationalist press reporting) and their navy is currently working with the RN in the Mediterranean and their air force is gradually being rebuilt after the wholesale sacking of pilots implicated in the coup plot in July last year.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 18:02
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Making sure they get politically reliable pilots for Mr Erdogan suggests to me that their Air Force will look more like the Saudi Air Force than the previous Turkish one. Nothing further on that observation as I only worked with the Turkish air force a little bit in my NATO job.
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 09:32
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Given the source is a Turkish-based (so effectively government-controlled) media outlet, this is a reasonably well-balanced and informative synopsis of how we got to this point.

Why is Turkey buying the Russian S-400 missile defence system? Why is Turkey buying the Russian S-400 missile defence system?


It does however, have a few 'wobbles'!


The Russian defence system, according to Turkey's NATO allies, will be incompatible with NATO infrastructure. (Yes, its difficult to have NATO Integrated Air & Missile Defence (NATINAMDS) if a major surveillance system is emitting as a threat sensor and the C2 system requires an air-gap to counter the possibility of embedded malware.)


"The problem is, how do you inter operate in the NATO system with Russians? They'll never inter operate," US Defense Secretary James Mattis told reporters. "We'll have to see — does it go through? Do they actually employ it? Do they employ it only in one area? All that kind of stuff. But you know, we'll have to take a look at it."


Greece bought the S-300 batteries from Russia in 1997, shortly after coming to the brink of war with Turkey and tested it in 2013. NATO allies, with the exception of Turkey, kept silent. (Yes, but in 1997 Russia was a NATO partner and no longer considered a security threat to Europe.)


In 2015, Greece was reportedly looking to purchase new missiles and other services from Russia in order to keep its S-300 batteries operational. (Reuters) (Yes, but this is why NATO is encouraging its members to divest themselves of equipment of Russian origin, whether Soviet period or later. It's difficult to impose economic sanctions on a country you are reliant on for defence technology and logistic support.)

Turkey plans to make its S-400 compatible with NATO systems by making an interface program through IFF coding (friend and foe identification program) to be provided by Aselsan, a Turkish defence industry firm.
"If Turkey relies completely on NATO, IFF system considers all member states as friendly. If there was an attack from Greece, IFF system will not see this as an attack and ignore it. But if Turkey controls its system then it can determine what and who is enemy or friend," Seren said. (Wonderful that we have 2 allies in the Alliance who remain at daggers drawn!)

Last edited by skippedonce; 27th Sep 2017 at 09:45.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 09:08
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Turkey's Erdogan says missile deal with Russia is final

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Tuesday that his country’s plan to purchase Russia’s long-range missile defense system is a “done deal,” brushing aside concerns from some NATO allies.

Erdogan appeared at a joint news conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin, who was in Ankara for his first foreign visit since his March 18 re-election. Both the defense system agreement and Putin’s visit underscore the intensifying ties between Turkey and Russia.

In December, they finalized a deal for Turkey to purchase Russia’s long-range S-400 missile defense system, raising eyebrows among some of Turkey’s fellow NATO members. “We have made an agreement regarding the S-400s. That subject is closed. It’s a done deal,” Erdogan said.

The warming relations between the two countries stand in contrast to the souring relations between Russia and the West over the poisoning in Britain of a Russian ex-spy. Turkey’s relations with its Western allies also have deteriorated over human rights issues and its military operations against Kurdish militia in Syria. The Turkish leader spoke of “attempts to poison Turkish-Russian cooperation” and added: “Thank God our relations navigated these difficult tests with success. With every failed provocation, our relationship strengthened, just like steel after iron is quenched with water.”

Putin said Russia will manufacture the S-400 missiles at a quicker pace than initially planned to deliver them more quickly per Ankara’s request. “We have decided to speed up the delivery of those highly efficient systems,” he added.

Earlier, the two leaders symbolically launched the start of the construction of Turkey’s first nuclear power plant, which will be built by Russia near the Mediterranean coast at Akkuyu.

Putin hailed the project as a symbol of growing cooperation between Russia and Turkey. “We face the ambitious goal of launching the first reactor in 2023 to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the Republic of Turkey,” the Russian leader said. “We agreed with my dear friend, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, to do everything necessary to achieve that goal.”

Erdogan said the power plant would meet 10 percent of Turkey’s energy needs after all reactors become operational. The Akkuyu plant is being built by Russia’s nuclear energy agency, Rosatom. The project is estimated to cost $20 billion.

Turkey and Russia have put aside their traditional rivalries and differences on regional issues to forge closer ties. Putin and Erdogan have met several times in the past year and regularly speak on the phone.

On Wednesday, Putin, Erdogan and Iranian President Hassan Rouhani are expected to hold a summit in the Turkish capital of Ankara to discuss Syria’s future. The three countries are sponsoring a series of efforts in a bid to end the seven-year war. Their cooperation comes despite having positions on opposing sides in the Syrian conflict. Moscow and Tehran have backed Syrian President Bashar Assad, while Turkey has supported the forces seeking to unseat him.
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