Attn BBMF DC3 Capt.
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Attn BBMF DC3 Capt.
Do you understand the concept of crowd lines?
Not impressed by todays somewhat cavalier approach to crowd safety.
Then again, maybe I'm just jealous
Not impressed by todays somewhat cavalier approach to crowd safety.
Then again, maybe I'm just jealous
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Mr Erect, a question for you. Have you ever done any military aircraft display flying? I suspect not. If you had you would know that the Pilots selected to display an RAF aircraft would not get anywhere near being allowed to if they had a "cavalier approach to crowd safety" Do you know what crowd lines were briefed and what the rules are for crossing them wrt types of mvr, height and flight path vector? If this was an official organised show and the DC3 had bust the rules it would have been dealt with by he airshow organisers. Questioning an easily identifyable pilots attitude to safety and airmanship on an open forum is pretty bad form old boy.
ps. I don't fly for the BBMF
ps. I don't fly for the BBMF
Fast Erect,
Yes, I think you might be jealous. Many of us who watched the display thought it was the best part of the show, seeing as you mentioned it. I don't think he did anything dangerous at all.
I am appalled that a professional pilot should use an anonymous means to try and drop a fellow pilot (who is obviously far from anonymous) in the dwang. Not a very professional attitude IMHO. If you want to do this, why not put your money where your mouth is and publish your own name and address?
Yes, I think you might be jealous. Many of us who watched the display thought it was the best part of the show, seeing as you mentioned it. I don't think he did anything dangerous at all.
I am appalled that a professional pilot should use an anonymous means to try and drop a fellow pilot (who is obviously far from anonymous) in the dwang. Not a very professional attitude IMHO. If you want to do this, why not put your money where your mouth is and publish your own name and address?
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OK, let's be more specific - Northern airfield, near a coal mining area, Saturday, middle of the afternoon, BBMF C47/DC3 - whatever, appeared directly over the crowd at about 200 feet. Proceeded in a low level circuit and did the same thing again with a chappie waving out of the back door. Fast Erect was quite correct in his original post about the breach of the crowdline, it was clearly shown on the pre show brief which was sent to all the participents. The Yak and the Spit were spot on the display line and did superb displays. While the Dak looked wonderful and everyone appreciated the spirited display, the current climate does not tolerate such behaviour and as such you previous posters should get your facts right or consider what you are supporting. A professional display shows the aeroplane off to it's best, you do not need to endanger the people who have paid to watch.
What is to be achieved by posting about this supposed 'breach'? Is there any reason to suppose that the organisers (and others) will not react correctly if the breach was serious or anything more than technical and legalistic? Is there any evidence that the pilot in question has not already had 'tea and biscuits' with his CO, hat on and without the tea and biscuits?
FE's original post was at least fairly oblique - whereas Clematis was even less 'helpful'.
Do remember that this is a public forum, visited by journos who may be even less scrupulous than me, and less sympathetic to aviation and the forces, and who could easily pick up on this during the slow news season.
FE's original post was at least fairly oblique - whereas Clematis was even less 'helpful'.
Do remember that this is a public forum, visited by journos who may be even less scrupulous than me, and less sympathetic to aviation and the forces, and who could easily pick up on this during the slow news season.
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As a newcomer to this BB, I'll probably be "flamed" for breaching whatever protocol is generally understood to be used, but I do have some comments for those of you who have taken FE to task for his observation.
While his posting certainly could have contained a more constructive tone, let's not get hung up on his language and miss the message. When we observe one of our peers blatently transgressing procedural and regulatory guidance, it is our duty to speak up. Possibly one of his peers or even a superior may become aware of the need for closer scrutinization. If we as aviators are willing to identify and discuss our mistakes, then safety is enhanced and the reputation of our profession is upheld, not denegrated. Are we so thin-skinned that we feel our attitude towards safety and airmanship should never be questioned? FE observed an obvious breach of safety. Who cares what his background is? When our First Officer says:"minimums, runway not in sight." do we mentally asses his experience level before deciding to execute a timely go-around?
If the Dakota pilot did nothing wrong, then that fact will become instanly apparent to everyone at BBMF. As a professional aviator, none of us are beyond reproach. To attack FE for attempting to "trash" the C-47 pilot is missing the point.
Feel free to flame away. I believe there should be no skeletons in the closets and no crazy old aunties. If I do something stupid in the jet, then by all means I want it pointed out.
Not afraid to be identified in public for my heresy,
Dan Johnson
Warm regards to all!
While his posting certainly could have contained a more constructive tone, let's not get hung up on his language and miss the message. When we observe one of our peers blatently transgressing procedural and regulatory guidance, it is our duty to speak up. Possibly one of his peers or even a superior may become aware of the need for closer scrutinization. If we as aviators are willing to identify and discuss our mistakes, then safety is enhanced and the reputation of our profession is upheld, not denegrated. Are we so thin-skinned that we feel our attitude towards safety and airmanship should never be questioned? FE observed an obvious breach of safety. Who cares what his background is? When our First Officer says:"minimums, runway not in sight." do we mentally asses his experience level before deciding to execute a timely go-around?
If the Dakota pilot did nothing wrong, then that fact will become instanly apparent to everyone at BBMF. As a professional aviator, none of us are beyond reproach. To attack FE for attempting to "trash" the C-47 pilot is missing the point.
Feel free to flame away. I believe there should be no skeletons in the closets and no crazy old aunties. If I do something stupid in the jet, then by all means I want it pointed out.
Not afraid to be identified in public for my heresy,
Dan Johnson
Warm regards to all!
Last edited by LJDRVR; 14th Jul 2002 at 22:20.
Well said Jacko, for speaking out, especially as a journalist yourself.
For those insisting on a complaint, there is a proper way to make complaints (for those with big enough balls) and IMHO this forum isn't it. Write a letter to the display organiser, with your name and address on top. Leave out the anonymous sniping, it says more about your own character than it does about anything else.
Before anyone asks, I was a UK military display pilot myself not so long ago, but not connected with the BBMF. I watched the display throughout and I think that 200 feet is a gross underestimate of the height flown. The wingspan of a DC-3 is 95 ft and the aircraft was never flown at just over 2 spans off the ground.
For those insisting on a complaint, there is a proper way to make complaints (for those with big enough balls) and IMHO this forum isn't it. Write a letter to the display organiser, with your name and address on top. Leave out the anonymous sniping, it says more about your own character than it does about anything else.
Before anyone asks, I was a UK military display pilot myself not so long ago, but not connected with the BBMF. I watched the display throughout and I think that 200 feet is a gross underestimate of the height flown. The wingspan of a DC-3 is 95 ft and the aircraft was never flown at just over 2 spans off the ground.
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Arty....are we talking about the same display?
Are you denying that said aeroplane flew DIRECTLY over the assembled masses at VERY low altitude?
By the way, whilst not wishing to blow my own trumpet, I am a CAA DA holder, therefore am reasonably qualified to comment upon such matters.
Sorry to have stirred up such a hornets nest, but I stand by my first post. I cant believe what I saw.
No further comment from me.
Are you denying that said aeroplane flew DIRECTLY over the assembled masses at VERY low altitude?
By the way, whilst not wishing to blow my own trumpet, I am a CAA DA holder, therefore am reasonably qualified to comment upon such matters.
Sorry to have stirred up such a hornets nest, but I stand by my first post. I cant believe what I saw.
No further comment from me.
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In certain threads within this forum, it appears to be generally acceptable to criticise (and even hurl personal insults at) named, individual RAF officers; whilst, in this thread, it is deemed by most to be bad form to question the conduct of an unnamed (albeit identifiable) RAF ac captain.
Those who accept public positions of authority and responsibility (and take the privileges that go with them) should not be too indignant when the occasional public brickbat comes their way. Such criticism can be an effective safeguard against complacency.
Those who accept public positions of authority and responsibility (and take the privileges that go with them) should not be too indignant when the occasional public brickbat comes their way. Such criticism can be an effective safeguard against complacency.
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As both military and a display pilot (though not at the same time)it's heartening to know that the next time I'm displaying, amongst the thousands of upturned faces enjoying the show, there will be one **** who will be waiting for me to slip up so they can start whining on PPRuNe.
There are many words to describe those sort of people. Snitch and Grass are the only clean ones I can think of.
There are many words to describe those sort of people. Snitch and Grass are the only clean ones I can think of.
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was it
all i'll say is was it the bbmf dakota? and furthermore a civilian flying an ex military aircraft in military markings does not come under the same regs as a true military aircraft. to give you an example a civvy hunter is allowed down to 500' msd without having to book in the low level system, in the military any flight by fjs below 2000' must be booked in to the low level system, although there are a few exemptions.
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Enough....
Doesn't matter - Civilian OR Military direct flight over the crowdline is NOT PERMITTED. And that definitely includes an approach from crowd rear at low level.
I was there, I saw it. And whilst I have remained silent thus far for the sake of the a/c captain (in public) enough is enough.
I was always aware that in every crowd, large or small, there will inevitably be one "upturned face" (who is not necessarily an ****** please note previous poster) but who knows enough about the whole scenario to make life uncomfortable for those foolish enough to bend the rules. That's life.
I agree with earlier posts - this is an open forum and as such some care is needed to avoid unwelcome attention from certain areas or to ensure we do not drop mates in it. But Fast Erect is also correct in calling the shots as he saw it. We need to be professional enough to stand up to scrutiny (or criticism).
(And before the wolves howl...I am mil and have displayed.)
I was there, I saw it. And whilst I have remained silent thus far for the sake of the a/c captain (in public) enough is enough.
I was always aware that in every crowd, large or small, there will inevitably be one "upturned face" (who is not necessarily an ****** please note previous poster) but who knows enough about the whole scenario to make life uncomfortable for those foolish enough to bend the rules. That's life.
I agree with earlier posts - this is an open forum and as such some care is needed to avoid unwelcome attention from certain areas or to ensure we do not drop mates in it. But Fast Erect is also correct in calling the shots as he saw it. We need to be professional enough to stand up to scrutiny (or criticism).
(And before the wolves howl...I am mil and have displayed.)
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AllTrimmedOut.
So, the pilot was "foolish" and "bent the rules". Nice to see you've made our mind up already. Is your name Wratten or Day?
The only people who will decide if the rules were bent/broken are the Display Comittee or the CAA representative.
So, the pilot was "foolish" and "bent the rules". Nice to see you've made our mind up already. Is your name Wratten or Day?
The only people who will decide if the rules were bent/broken are the Display Comittee or the CAA representative.
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Reichman -
Pse check your private messages. As stated in my post - You never know who is in the crowd. Re-read my post, then ponder before launching, and you will see that I am not in favour of dropping people in it in public. However...
Those of us fortunate to have been allowed to display in the past will all have memories of accidentally cutting it a bit fine or not allowing quite enough for that on-crowd wind. But then I would hope to put in the right correction for the next pass. We are all capable of ****ing up and learning from it.
But this was a bit too much! Yes, it looked marvellous - and in another time I would be the first to applaud. In fact, I'll just go and re-run the video now to see it all again! But I'm afraid this was just a bit more than the "oops " factor.
Pse check your private messages. As stated in my post - You never know who is in the crowd. Re-read my post, then ponder before launching, and you will see that I am not in favour of dropping people in it in public. However...
Those of us fortunate to have been allowed to display in the past will all have memories of accidentally cutting it a bit fine or not allowing quite enough for that on-crowd wind. But then I would hope to put in the right correction for the next pass. We are all capable of ****ing up and learning from it.
But this was a bit too much! Yes, it looked marvellous - and in another time I would be the first to applaud. In fact, I'll just go and re-run the video now to see it all again! But I'm afraid this was just a bit more than the "oops " factor.
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Are you sure about that ATD? The Reds have been cleared for arrivals from crowd rear for years.
However, when displaying the rules are clear. But, the TWO or THREE who claim to have been there, are the only ones who have ACTUALLY seen what rule may or may not have been broken. Also, there is a question in regard to the effects of parallax - where the object changes position in regard to the observer on the ground. What is actually required is a view from a person who was actually on, or very close to, the approved display line, and was, therefore, then in a perfect position to see where the DC3 was in relation to it.
Over the display line towards the crowd and he has broken the rule without question. Unless, there is written dispensation from the CAA and the organisers. I think I am right in saying that the organiser alone cannot authorise such dispensation. But I would also expect, since I know that it has happened, that the CAA would, in the case of exceptional pilots, give such approval - for the right reasons and within certain limits. I suggest that the Captain of the BMMF DC3 may well fall within that category.
I hope that there will be no more jumping to conclusions, and the making of rash opinions no longer pervades this thread.
However, when displaying the rules are clear. But, the TWO or THREE who claim to have been there, are the only ones who have ACTUALLY seen what rule may or may not have been broken. Also, there is a question in regard to the effects of parallax - where the object changes position in regard to the observer on the ground. What is actually required is a view from a person who was actually on, or very close to, the approved display line, and was, therefore, then in a perfect position to see where the DC3 was in relation to it.
Over the display line towards the crowd and he has broken the rule without question. Unless, there is written dispensation from the CAA and the organisers. I think I am right in saying that the organiser alone cannot authorise such dispensation. But I would also expect, since I know that it has happened, that the CAA would, in the case of exceptional pilots, give such approval - for the right reasons and within certain limits. I suggest that the Captain of the BMMF DC3 may well fall within that category.
I hope that there will be no more jumping to conclusions, and the making of rash opinions no longer pervades this thread.
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InFin etc...
1. Reds no longer arrive from crowd rear. They now conform with Regs (they did have a dispensation for years) and as such can display in France etc again.
2. Sorry to say it but I WAS there and in the perfect (or unfortunate) position to have the Dak overfly me FROM CROWD REAR.
3. I too think enough has been said. It was an exceptional day out, well organised , with some splendid displays (Thanks Charlie Brown!). Let's leave it at that, eh?
1. Reds no longer arrive from crowd rear. They now conform with Regs (they did have a dispensation for years) and as such can display in France etc again.
2. Sorry to say it but I WAS there and in the perfect (or unfortunate) position to have the Dak overfly me FROM CROWD REAR.
3. I too think enough has been said. It was an exceptional day out, well organised , with some splendid displays (Thanks Charlie Brown!). Let's leave it at that, eh?