British Army - Delusional About Air Power

[Chugalug2]

Danny 42C:-

Britain was beaten to the wall, he must have reasoned, it must soon sue for an armistice. Why should he bother to feed and house 300,000 prisoners ?

Then we must owe the survival not only of our Army, but of our Nation, to the insightfulness of the Fuhrer! It was certainly not the only time that he acted in our best interests, to the extent that Opration Foxley, the SOE plan to assassinate Hitler, was shelved with the realisation that Allied victory on our terms was more certain with him alive than dead.

This period, from the beginning of the phoney war until after Hess's arrest in Scotland, contains more known unknowns, or perhaps even unknown unknowns, than any other in WWII. I suspect that we were peddling much misinformation, as much to our influential existing and prospective traitors as to our enemies. One day the full story will be told and will be fascinating to say the least.

[Blacksheep]

I have my suspicions that the 48 hour pause was meant for setting up terms under which Britain would cease hostilities. Fighting resumed when Churchill rejected any possibility of such a thing.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Is there any acceptable alternative to the expression "boots on the ground"? Because boots on the ground seem to crop up with nauseating regularity. Politicians love talking about boots on the ground, and people on forums love writing about boots on the ground, and if I had a dollar for every time I've heard about boots on the ground lately, I could probably afford some boots on the ground myself.

Rant over, carry on.

[Rotate too late]

Flip flops on the laminate flooring?

[Herod]

Brothel-creepers on the bundu?

[Pontius Navigator]

Boots-boots-boots-boots moving' up and down again

[ORAC]

Is there any acceptable alternative to the expression "boots on the ground"?

PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry) - as in the sense of ill treated - not derogatory.

Origins in the "Wipers Times" during WWI.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=PBI

[Lima Juliet]

Boots on the ground were required on Japanese land prior to the instant sunshine; Iwo Jima, Okinawa most definitely and a majority would include Guam, Saipan, and Tinian.

I disagree. I don't believe that the unconditional surrender was due to the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki plus a bunch of islands that were captured was it? If the bombs had been ready before the battles you mention then it is highly likely that there would have been no need to fight them. The only island needed to be taken was where Enola Gay flew from, Tinian. Get and maintain air superiority over the rest and let the grunts on the ground fester. The atomic bombs did mean abandoning ketsu-go, the strategy of fighting one last decisive battle intended to inflict so many casualties on the war-weary Allies that they might relax their demands for unconditional surrender and negotiate a peace. The 2x bombs changed all thinking on this and the fact that the politicians along with the Emporer decided that surrender was the only way meant that the Japanese military could withdraw and lay down arms with honour.

LJ

[FOG]

Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz

I disagree. I don't believe that the unconditional surrender was due to the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki plus a bunch of islands that were captured was it? If the bombs had been ready before the battles you mention then it is highly likely that there would have been no need to fight them. The only island needed to be taken was where Enola Gay flew from, Tinian. Get and maintain air superiority over the rest and let the grunts on the ground fester. The atomic bombs did mean abandoning ketsu-go, the strategy of fighting one last decisive battle intended to inflict so many casualties on the war-weary Allies that they might relax their demands for unconditional surrender and negotiate a peace. The 2x bombs changed all thinking on this and the fact that the politicians along with the Emporer decided that surrender was the only way meant that the Japanese military could withdraw and lay down arms with honour.

LJ

LJ,

How do take Tinian without taking Saipan? Tinian is in pack howitzer range of Saipan. Tie down the majority of the Pacific fleet suppressing Saipan and Guam?

A little island between Guam, Saipan, and Tinian and the Japanese mainland with quite a few fighters that took a significant toll on the bombers is called Iwo Jima. The calculations, from both USAAF and USMC, was that the casualties in taking Iwo were less than the losses to the bombers would have been.

Maybe keep the B-29s in china move the atomic bombs plus all logistical support and then risk their loss over Japanese held mainland Asia?

Even with both atomic bombs there was not agreement in the Imperial Japanese military to surrender.

S/F, FOG

[Pontius Navigator]

FOG, as the man said, it was the Emperor who surrendered.

[FOG]

Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator

FOG, as the man said, it was the Emperor who surrendered.

PN,

Never said the Emperor had not decided to surrender. What is also not in dispute is the fact both the military and politicians were split on whether to surrender. The facts that remain unclear are what really happened at the Imperial Palace; Coup, attempted house arrest, etc.

The undisputed fact is the Emperor accepted the conditional (Emperor remains) unconditional surrender demand.

As the title states “Professional Military Aviation”. Basic professionalism in geography, capabilities of acft, and other known facts is taken as a given.

S/F, FOG

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz

KenV
No, you completely miss the point. The boots in Japan, Germany and Italy do not remain because of World War 2. They remain because of new threats from Russian (earlier Soviet), Chinese and N Korean threats after World War 2.

What part of the following was hard to understand?

Those boots have remained in Japan, Germany, Italy, (and in the UK, Korea, Kuwait and elsewhere) because boots on the ground are required in any limited war. And all wars after WW2 have been limited wars and will remain so for the foreseeable future. (emphasis added)

Please read what I wrote, not what you imagine I wrote.

[ExGrunt]

The only island needed to be taken was where Enola Gay flew from, Tinian.

As another little historical aside, 'BOCKSCAR' the B29 that dropped 'Fat Man' on Nagasaki had to divert and land on Okinawa after the raid.

Sometimes you just need those pesky grunts to secure more land for big long slabs of concrete before you can successfully play Biggles.

;o)

EG

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz

Also, hypothetically, there were no boots on the ground required in Japan after World War 2 because if the population and its leadership did not behave then a third, fourth, fifth, etc... bucket of sunshine could have been dropped - they had no defence against it.

Oh my. One cannot occupy/control a nation and its populace by droping nukes on them. That requires boots on the ground.

And FYI, the Japanese had no defense against conventional bombers after Sept 2 and far more destruction was wrought and people killed by conventional bombs than the two nukes. Further, NO ONE, including the Soviets had a defense against nukes immediately after WW2. Yet it took LOTS of boots on the ground to secure Europe post WW2. And neither Korea, nor Vietnam, nor Iraq nor any of the other targets of various limited wars had a defense against nukes and thus they required boots on the ground. You fail to understand that nukes are terror weapons that terrorize their owners as much as their enemies. Perhaps more. That's why none have been used in anger after August 1945 and EVERY war thereafter (and for the foreseeable future) has had to rely on boots on the ground.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz

I disagree...The only island needed to be taken was where Enola Gay flew from, Tinian.

Oh my. The Doolittle Raid was pointless, Midway was not necessary, Guadalcanal and every island invasion thereafter (except Tinian of course) were a waste. Yah shur.

[Pontius Navigator]

LJ, you asked about a new name, why not adopt a new persona and start again with a new name

[Lima Juliet]

Originally Posted by KenV

Oh my. The Doolittle Raid was pointless, Midway was not necessary, Guadalcanal and every island invasion thereafter (except Tinian of course) were a waste. Yah shur.

KenV

The Doolittle Raid was air power projection from carriers and Midway was a naval battle with heavy use of air power launched from carriers. Where and how are your so-called boots on the ground necessary for these??

Also, for the other points above, the 2x bombs brought the Japanese to the negotiating table and ended the war. Nothing else up to that point had put the Japanese in a mindset to do so. I would offer that all strategic weapons would fall into the 'terror weapon' bracket in that they strategically influence thinking far more. Indeed your Doolittle Raid was a strategic piece meaning that the US showed the ability to be able to strike the Japanese mainland; tactically it achieved little but strategically it proved so much more.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator

LJ, you asked about a new name, why not adopt a new persona and start again with a new name

PN - Ta, I've said all I need to say on that other thread. It would seem that my opinions aren't alone with my thinking though! I am thinking about resigning the name shortly...

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz

KenV The Doolittle Raid was air power projection from carriers and Midway was a naval battle with heavy use of air power launched from carriers. Where and how are your so-called boots on the ground necessary for these??

Interesting point. My reply was in rebutal to the claim that Tinian was the only island that needed to be taken to win the Pacific war. That's absurd. Taking Tinian was dependent on all the sea, air, and land battles that preceded it.

Also, for the other points above, the 2x bombs brought the Japanese to the negotiating table and ended the war.

Oh my, not even approximately correct. While I agree that the two nukes were a critical tipping point for Japan, they accounted for a tiny fraction of the total destruction brought upon Japan and its people. And it's beyond absurd to call the table where the instrument of surrender was signed on the USS Missouri a "negotiating table." The first sentence of the second paragraph of that instruments states: "We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated." (emphasis added) There were zero negotiations.

[Heathrow Harry]

Plus of course the Russians had piled in and were intent on taking over as much of N China & Japan as they could..................