Interrogation awareness or resistance training
Most RAF Germany aircrew attended the winter survival course at Bad Kohlgrub.in Bavaria. This included 5 days skiing training, 3 days of survival in the very cold woods. Each evening there were lectures on survival, resistance to interrogation etc. The final piece was 24 hours of escape and evasion, pursued by German special forces. If you escaped successfully a helicopter took you back for a hot springs bath. If you failed you got put in a cage to see if you had absorbed the resistance to interrogation lectures!!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
When I did the Kholgrub course I was on Wessex, a nice twin-engined helicopter. When winching, the aircraft would descend, so that in the event of a cable-cut the survivor only fell a few feet. At that time the Germans were using the Sycamore, a single-engine machine, and winched from a considerable height. When I told the staff I wasn't going, and explained why, I was allowed to go back with the ground party. Chicken maybe, but my blood-pressure thanked me for it. It's one thing to be hunted all night, quite another to put life and limb in the hands of a helicopter that the RAF had withdrawn some years earlier owing to its propensity to roll over when on the ground.
TTN
The stuff they taught was the same at Bad K and Mountbatten. At the end of the day, the R to I bit and the conditioning that went with it was certainly uncomfortable, but it did not and could not get near what might be the real thing. What might happen to captured aircrew was skipped over really- there's no point in confirming that they'll stick yer balls in a vice. Rather, they concentrated on not being, 'played' by the interrogators, by sticking to the big four and, "I cannot answer that question".
At Mountbatten, everyone went in the bag, whether they were caught or not. Evaders were given a hot drink and went in the bag at 6 pm.
CG
(Present in the room at Bad K when Pyro Pete shot a Herc loadie with a miniflare!)
but I think it was standard practice in RAFG at the time. I understand it wasn't pleasant,
At Mountbatten, everyone went in the bag, whether they were caught or not. Evaders were given a hot drink and went in the bag at 6 pm.
CG
(Present in the room at Bad K when Pyro Pete shot a Herc loadie with a miniflare!)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
NRU 74, quite, what did I say that you disagreed with? In the real thing you hopefully wouldn't have the hang over, leaky wet suit or none.
And of the latter course, with the mess full of mysterious Russian emigre (well that's what they looked out) it was necessary to pre-load with Riddles as an aid to clearing the gut before the next day.
And of the latter course, with the mess full of mysterious Russian emigre (well that's what they looked out) it was necessary to pre-load with Riddles as an aid to clearing the gut before the next day.
Main thing I remember about Bad Kohlgrub was a colleague getting off with one of the finishing school girls at our party in the Gasthaus zur Post, maid noticing and reporting followed by commander, chaperone and said maid dashing upstairs in damage limitation attempt. Unfortunately for colleague, they succeeded 
A long time ago.....
.....a chap of my acquaintance who did the escape and evasion course was questioned by an interrogator who he assumed was either a CS or an Auxiliary. After the questions which he said were the ones they'd been briefed on and could have come from his service records they suddenly changed tack and were deeply personal stuff not likely to be in records.
He said he then lost the plot and began to believe it was no longer an exercise.
Finally it stopped and he was told the ex was over but he then refused to believe them and stuck with the number rank name bit. It was a day and a half before he "came down". Eventually they brought in the interrogator, who had been one of his school teachers which was where all the really personal stuff had come from. He never really forgave them.
The Ancient Mariner
He said he then lost the plot and began to believe it was no longer an exercise.
Finally it stopped and he was told the ex was over but he then refused to believe them and stuck with the number rank name bit. It was a day and a half before he "came down". Eventually they brought in the interrogator, who had been one of his school teachers which was where all the really personal stuff had come from. He never really forgave them.
The Ancient Mariner
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TAM, similar story, they had information about his family and a cold or such which had occurred after startex. This was in the days when the KGB records were believed to be better than PMC.
What price Persec today with Linkln, Facebook and even Pprune. Many wannabes and not a few Ppruners can be identified from what they say here.
What price Persec today with Linkln, Facebook and even Pprune. Many wannabes and not a few Ppruners can be identified from what they say here.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
There was a sneaky little trick on the Mountbatten course. The idea was that after a couple of days evading, when you are tired and hungry, a "partisan" was to guide you to safety. Needless to say, he was a double agent, and led you into a trap. Supposedly, at the weekend a selected Army unit was told they were going to have a long weekend, starting from lunch on Friday. Mid-morning it was cancelled because the RAF wanted people to act as "enemy" for a course, and the weekend wouldn't start until lunch Saturday. Of course, when they captured us, their mood was far from warm, cuddly and welcoming.
I am interested to learn what training or information was made available to aircrew on the "V" Force or R.A.F.G. during the Cold War, with regard to interrogation techniques likely to be faced in the event of capture and what if any training was provided to enable a crew member to resist or deflect any interrogation? "The Avgasdinosaur "
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
I was once in a room with a "Warsaw Pact" lady who was supposed to be an agent.
Unfortunately for her, I recognised her from many years before when she was on a language course and simply said "Hi, C*****!" (her real Christian name). Game over, one up to the evaders
Unfortunately for her, I recognised her from many years before when she was on a language course and simply said "Hi, C*****!" (her real Christian name). Game over, one up to the evaders
TAM, similar story, they had information about his family and a cold or such which had occurred after startex. This was in the days when the KGB records were believed to be better than PMC.
What price Persec today with Linkln, Facebook and even Pprune. Many wannabes and not a few Ppruners can be identified from what they say here.
What price Persec today with Linkln, Facebook and even Pprune. Many wannabes and not a few Ppruners can be identified from what they say here.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have stood on both sides of the table and taught E&E at basic flying training. As RAFG Aircrew I did Bad K and got caught by German Alpine troops who were very well prepared for the 'exercise'. I subsequently did the CSRO Course and all that it entailed. To teach the subject with integrity; I worked with the 'enemy' frequently over a three year period. So you could say I have been there, seen it, etc.
Much is not for discussion with anonymous ears on a public forum. Amongst many reasons why is that things may have changed, and my information is now 22 years down the road. On the assumption that points of administration have not changed; I can tell you that all the bad guys know in advance of a prisoner being presented is how many prisoners there are, and the number written on a tag attached to their clothing. Thereafter everything they learn is an own goal. Air Force/Army/Navy lists where the traditional source of information, especially the Army list that included nicknames or known as names, that permitted a personal interaction. The advent of Facebook and LinkedIn were a Godsend for Interrogators, and if you Google 'London Gazette' and your service number, you may be surprised what you find.
The Israeli R2I doctrine was to speak freely and place the deduction of 'truth' with the interrogator. The US embraced a policy of limited release over a set timeline. The disadvantage of the British stiff upper lip is that a UK prisoner talking is almost certainly telling the truth. Gulf War I showed that Tornado wreckage with ejection seats adorned with RAF station names, and two walking aviators didn't actually have to say too much to work out who they were. This issue was prevelent throughout the Cold War.
Ever wondered why the junior rank of RAF Aircrew is a Sgt? Read the Geneve Convention for there lies the answer. Do contemporary enemies abide by said convention? The Jordanian F16 pilot burned alive answered that one.
Much is not for discussion with anonymous ears on a public forum. Amongst many reasons why is that things may have changed, and my information is now 22 years down the road. On the assumption that points of administration have not changed; I can tell you that all the bad guys know in advance of a prisoner being presented is how many prisoners there are, and the number written on a tag attached to their clothing. Thereafter everything they learn is an own goal. Air Force/Army/Navy lists where the traditional source of information, especially the Army list that included nicknames or known as names, that permitted a personal interaction. The advent of Facebook and LinkedIn were a Godsend for Interrogators, and if you Google 'London Gazette' and your service number, you may be surprised what you find.
The Israeli R2I doctrine was to speak freely and place the deduction of 'truth' with the interrogator. The US embraced a policy of limited release over a set timeline. The disadvantage of the British stiff upper lip is that a UK prisoner talking is almost certainly telling the truth. Gulf War I showed that Tornado wreckage with ejection seats adorned with RAF station names, and two walking aviators didn't actually have to say too much to work out who they were. This issue was prevelent throughout the Cold War.
Ever wondered why the junior rank of RAF Aircrew is a Sgt? Read the Geneve Convention for there lies the answer. Do contemporary enemies abide by said convention? The Jordanian F16 pilot burned alive answered that one.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As V-Force we had an unabadged flying suit for Ops. Flying Clothing section regularly tried to compromise us labelling flying suits with COT 96 and the like. They were annoyed when we cut the compromising labels out. They painted the COT number on the bone dome, it look crap and we scraped it off.
An uphill struggle maintaining anonymity.
An uphill struggle maintaining anonymity.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CG - It was accepted during WWII that aircrew, particulary bomber crews, were highly likely to end up dead or a POW. The Geneve Convention clearly states the treatment that is legal for Officers, SNCO, and other ranks. Work of a dangerous or objectionable nature is not permitted for any POW, but junior ranks can be made to work and SNCOs supervise only. Officers were too busy digging tunnels to supervise. It was felt by Govt that as bomber crews would probably be a POW through no fault of their own that they should be protected from subsequent employment shovelling **** in fields. This is why the minimum aircrew rank was Sgt as the war progressed. There was a time early in WWII that air gunners were junior ranks. The rank structure for none-commissioned aircrew was very different then than it is today.
Ref: Waterboarding. I saw a lot of things in SF training and Waterboarding was not one of them. The exercise administration with regarding to holding, questioning techniques, and exercise duration was controlled to the point of paranoia. That is not to say that in times gone by things may not have been different. PM Edward Heath publicly stated that the UK would not employ hoods as blindfolds......
There is truth in the fact that Iraqi officers void of rank were identified by their shoes, and by being invited to dine first. ... and that taking overt notice of your surroundings will get you unwanted attention; whereas head down deflated appearance = grey man.
Ref: Waterboarding. I saw a lot of things in SF training and Waterboarding was not one of them. The exercise administration with regarding to holding, questioning techniques, and exercise duration was controlled to the point of paranoia. That is not to say that in times gone by things may not have been different. PM Edward Heath publicly stated that the UK would not employ hoods as blindfolds......
There is truth in the fact that Iraqi officers void of rank were identified by their shoes, and by being invited to dine first. ... and that taking overt notice of your surroundings will get you unwanted attention; whereas head down deflated appearance = grey man.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Burgherville
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recall the general "buzz" for RN ASW was that the most likely scenario was you'd be lined up, the pilot would be shot and the observer, who had knowledge of the "plot", would be invited to enlighten the others in the room!