RAF offered F117 by Reagan?
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Embarrassment for MoD because new £650million spy planes cannot refuel in mid-air
By Ian Drury, Defence Correspondent
Published: 08:44 EST, 22 January 2013 | Updated: 20:00 EST, 22 January 2013
The RAF cannot refuel its new £650million spy planes in mid-air, it has been revealed.
In a fresh humiliation for the Ministry of Defence, it emerged that Britain must rely on other nations to fill up the RC-135 Rivet Joint aircraft once it is in the skies.
Military analysts warned that crucial reconnaissance missions could be jeopardised by the UK's failure to act independently.
But the Ministry of Defence said fuel efficient engines allow the plane to operate for longer while avoiding the spiralling costs and delays involved in converting it.
Ministers bought three second-hand Rivet Joints from the U.S. Air Force in March 2010 to eavesdrop on enemy communications.
By Ian Drury, Defence Correspondent
Published: 08:44 EST, 22 January 2013 | Updated: 20:00 EST, 22 January 2013
The RAF cannot refuel its new £650million spy planes in mid-air, it has been revealed.
In a fresh humiliation for the Ministry of Defence, it emerged that Britain must rely on other nations to fill up the RC-135 Rivet Joint aircraft once it is in the skies.
Military analysts warned that crucial reconnaissance missions could be jeopardised by the UK's failure to act independently.
But the Ministry of Defence said fuel efficient engines allow the plane to operate for longer while avoiding the spiralling costs and delays involved in converting it.
Ministers bought three second-hand Rivet Joints from the U.S. Air Force in March 2010 to eavesdrop on enemy communications.
The first RAF RC-135W, ZZ664, arrived in 2013. It was originally delivered to SAC as a tanker in September, 1964.
Our spyplanes have been warmly hosted by the UK for decades. I can remember the SR-71 pilots strutting around the O'Club at Mildenhall in their orange flight suits years ago until the Pentagon made them tone down the wardrobe.
I believe at least four RAF pilots flew the F-117 as exchange officers. I've seen reports that two RAF pilots flew the F-117 as early as 1986 for 'evaluation', was this perhaps the 'Project Moonflower'?
In Bernard Noble's "Properly to Test: Book Two", a collection of reminiscences from pilots and trials personnel who worked at Boscombe Down, the late Air Commodore Colin Cruickshanks wrote about how he and Dave Southwood ended up evaluating the F-117 prior to the 1988 DoD announcement of the program.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On another website
Unlike deepest Norfolk RAF Sites are much more open to public view.
I guess the MOD didn't want the hassle of having to order and keep secret a foreign black programme and be responsible for blowing its cover until the US had publicly revealed its existence.
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In Bernard Noble's "Properly to Test: Book Two", a collection of reminiscences from pilots and trials personnel who worked at Boscombe Down, the late Air Commodore Colin Cruickshanks wrote about how he and Dave Southwood ended up evaluating the F-117 prior to the 1988 DoD announcement of the program.
Here's a 2004 post on another forum that mentions the declined F-117 offer to the UK:
posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 10:01 AM
Actually a RAF pilot was almost deployed tot he Gulf in DS I. RAf pilots were put into F-117 squadrons to evaluate and test the planes. The U.S. was willing to sell the plane to the Brits, but the cost etc, may have been a bit much for the budget. No doubt, if they wish to pony up for the Raptor, they will be allowed acess to it as well.
Actually a RAF pilot was almost deployed tot he Gulf in DS I. RAf pilots were put into F-117 squadrons to evaluate and test the planes. The U.S. was willing to sell the plane to the Brits, but the cost etc, may have been a bit much for the budget. No doubt, if they wish to pony up for the Raptor, they will be allowed acess to it as well.
Concerning possible unannounced F-117 deployments to the UK, I found these comments, along with many other fond reminiscences, in Lockheed's Code One magazine:
On my second tour in F-117s, the wing was in the white world. We had relocated to Holloman and things were moving very well. It was a time when lots of things were happening. We were quite often called on to execute deployments and we did on several occasions. Some of those deployments came under the cover of darkness and we did them well. We packed equipment and flew the aircraft out of town and nobody noticed.
Other times we went overseas in support of contingencies. When we deployed for Kosovo, one squadron went to Aviano in Italy and one squadron went to Spangdahlem in Germany. – Bill Lake, Bandit 252
Other times we went overseas in support of contingencies. When we deployed for Kosovo, one squadron went to Aviano in Italy and one squadron went to Spangdahlem in Germany. – Bill Lake, Bandit 252
There is more detail on the involvement of RAF pilots in the F-117 programme in books on the aeroplane by Paul Crickmore. The two Boscombe Down pilots mentioned above flew the evaluation of it in 1986. From 1988 onwards until the aircraft went out of service with the USAF there was always one RAF pilot flying it on an exchange tour.
In 1986 the F-117 squadrons operated from Tonopah. Therefore, whilst still a 'black' programme all flying was done in secrecy. The A-7s that the 4450th also operated at that time as cover aircraft allowed deployments to be made to non-US bases to exercise operational procedures without compromising the F-117's existence. At least one such detachment was made to the UK (possibly Bentwaters about 1985).
It is interesting to compare the capabilities of the Tornado GR1 and the F-117 in 1986. The only targeting pod in RAF service at that time was Pavespike on the Buccaneer. This was a TV/visual spectrum system with, therefore, no night capability and one that required the navigator to locate the target visually as a screen image, slew the reticule onto it then maintain an input to generate the required sightline spin rate; there was no form of reticule ground stabilisation (FIN 1063 had not been fitted to the Buccaneer yet). Paveway III had not been cleared on the Tornado at that time and so it did not possess a 2000 lb guided weapon delivery capability. The navigation system had a gimballed IN with a 1nm/hour drift rate blended with a doppler through a Kalman filter which improved the drift rate to about 0.5nm/hour. The F-117 IRADS was an IR spectrum system which allowed night attacks. The inertial navigation system, SPN-GEANS, had a 0.12nm/hour accuracy which gave good pointing accuracy and ground stabilisation for the IRADS. The standard weapon was a GBU-27 2000 lb LGB. Therefore, in 1986 the weapon system and capabilities of the F-117 for heavy PGM delivery was vastly superior to the Tornado GR1.
One major consideration with respect to potential F-117 use by the RAF would have been that the UK's main theatre of interest in 1986 was central Europe. The F-117 was a medium level delivery platform that required line of sight to the target and, therefore, the amount of low and medium altitude cloud in Europe would have precluded its use in that theatre for a significant percentage of the year.
Please note that all that I have said above is already open source data.
In 1986 the F-117 squadrons operated from Tonopah. Therefore, whilst still a 'black' programme all flying was done in secrecy. The A-7s that the 4450th also operated at that time as cover aircraft allowed deployments to be made to non-US bases to exercise operational procedures without compromising the F-117's existence. At least one such detachment was made to the UK (possibly Bentwaters about 1985).
It is interesting to compare the capabilities of the Tornado GR1 and the F-117 in 1986. The only targeting pod in RAF service at that time was Pavespike on the Buccaneer. This was a TV/visual spectrum system with, therefore, no night capability and one that required the navigator to locate the target visually as a screen image, slew the reticule onto it then maintain an input to generate the required sightline spin rate; there was no form of reticule ground stabilisation (FIN 1063 had not been fitted to the Buccaneer yet). Paveway III had not been cleared on the Tornado at that time and so it did not possess a 2000 lb guided weapon delivery capability. The navigation system had a gimballed IN with a 1nm/hour drift rate blended with a doppler through a Kalman filter which improved the drift rate to about 0.5nm/hour. The F-117 IRADS was an IR spectrum system which allowed night attacks. The inertial navigation system, SPN-GEANS, had a 0.12nm/hour accuracy which gave good pointing accuracy and ground stabilisation for the IRADS. The standard weapon was a GBU-27 2000 lb LGB. Therefore, in 1986 the weapon system and capabilities of the F-117 for heavy PGM delivery was vastly superior to the Tornado GR1.
One major consideration with respect to potential F-117 use by the RAF would have been that the UK's main theatre of interest in 1986 was central Europe. The F-117 was a medium level delivery platform that required line of sight to the target and, therefore, the amount of low and medium altitude cloud in Europe would have precluded its use in that theatre for a significant percentage of the year.
Please note that all that I have said above is already open source data.
The A-7 cover story did make it rather obvious that there was more to the ???th TFW, Tonopah AFB than Uncle Spam would admit!
When I joked about 'The odd looking black jets at Tonopah' to our USAF Exchange Officer, his reply of "There's just a bunch of A-7s there" was such an obviously weak cover that it was laughable. The US didn't even admit to the existence of Area 51 either, but if you looked at an old chart and compared it with a new one, the centre of the sides of the additional rectangle was akin to 'X marks the spot'!
Did those 'Boscombe Down pilots' get to see the 'Big Tamale', I wonder...???
When I joked about 'The odd looking black jets at Tonopah' to our USAF Exchange Officer, his reply of "There's just a bunch of A-7s there" was such an obviously weak cover that it was laughable. The US didn't even admit to the existence of Area 51 either, but if you looked at an old chart and compared it with a new one, the centre of the sides of the additional rectangle was akin to 'X marks the spot'!
Did those 'Boscombe Down pilots' get to see the 'Big Tamale', I wonder...???
The only physical proof that the then unit ws here is this photo of 'Goat Suckers' A-7D chase a/c from RAF Bentwaters FB page , taxiing at BW sometime in mid 80s
As there were a number of 'the Goat Suckers A-7 got deployed to overses bses such as Osan where the ground crews were told to lay flat facing the ground as the a/c taxied past as it was aalleged it was carrying very top secret sensors or pod (empty pod lol ) thus part of adding to the myth secrecy cover up of the unit and F-117 ..
When I was an air cadet, I heard rumours from other ATC cadets in the suffolk area who claimed that the F-117 had oeprated out of the 'Hall at night claimed to have seen.... quite laughable as it be better off flying from the 'heath where there are HAS's and more woodland. Then forgot about the L-M Skunk Works personnel and the SR-71 'Habu' twin barns which were vacant after the recent departure of Det 4 and subsequent retirement of the Blackbird. If you look at the individual 'barns' at Tonopah, they are similar to the Det 4 ones here at the 'Hall
cheers
Would it be better if I had said they were from Norfolk 
In all seriousness, how come in the many recent books on the F-117, why is there no official acknowledgement or pilot stories about deploying to the UK if it ever happened?
The 117 is officially retired albeit kept under wrap and still several examples still flying out in Nevada desert in support of 'other programs'.
cheers
In all seriousness, how come in the many recent books on the F-117, why is there no official acknowledgement or pilot stories about deploying to the UK if it ever happened?
The 117 is officially retired albeit kept under wrap and still several examples still flying out in Nevada desert in support of 'other programs'.
cheers
I did read in Air Forces Monthly and other publications in the late 80s, that the 117 was rumoured to have been flying out of RAF Sculthorpe ...which at the time was still under full USAFE control -
cheers
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The A-7 cover story did make it rather obvious that there was more to the ???th TFW, Tonopah AFB than Uncle Spam would admit!
When I joked about 'The odd looking black jets at Tonopah' to our USAF Exchange Officer, his reply of "There's just a bunch of A-7s there" was such an obviously weak cover that it was laughable.
When I joked about 'The odd looking black jets at Tonopah' to our USAF Exchange Officer, his reply of "There's just a bunch of A-7s there" was such an obviously weak cover that it was laughable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_I...rsair_II_crash
And there was more to cover up than just the F-117's. There was a small cadre of C-5 crewmembers read into the program that transported the F-117's with wings removed. I believe they publically did missions like taking F-5's to RAF Alconbury to hide their primary covert mission. The C-5 operation was known by some unofficial name like 'Major Mannion's Black Hole' since everyone who went into the program disappeared from the rest of the Military Airlift Command except for training.
In all seriousness, how come in the many recent books on the F-117, why is there no official acknowledgement or pilot stories about deploying to the UK if it ever happened?
The 117 is officially retired albeit kept under wrap and still several examples still flying out in Nevada desert in support of 'other programs'.
The 117 is officially retired albeit kept under wrap and still several examples still flying out in Nevada desert in support of 'other programs'.
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Folks,
I hope you will forgive another intrusion form the civil side.
Mr. Chopper2000,
In case you are interested, this is the "secret ECM pod" carried by the 4450th's A-7's. Basically a baggage pod fitted with the seeker head of an AGM-65 and a few additional aerials. IIRC it also had a red LED light that flashed when the pod was "active" and a prominent yellow radiation symbol on it too.
Photo was taken after it had been retired and marked up as the "A-7 Klingon Cloaking Device". Sorry for the quality, thought I had a better one somewhere, but can't find it.....
I hope you will forgive another intrusion form the civil side.
Mr. Chopper2000,
In case you are interested, this is the "secret ECM pod" carried by the 4450th's A-7's. Basically a baggage pod fitted with the seeker head of an AGM-65 and a few additional aerials. IIRC it also had a red LED light that flashed when the pod was "active" and a prominent yellow radiation symbol on it too.
Photo was taken after it had been retired and marked up as the "A-7 Klingon Cloaking Device". Sorry for the quality, thought I had a better one somewhere, but can't find it.....
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In case you are interested, this is the "secret ECM pod" carried by the 4450th's A-7's. Basically a baggage pod fitted with the seeker head of an AGM-65 and a few additional aerials. IIRC it also had a red LED light that flashed when the pod was "active" and a prominent yellow radiation symbol on it too.
Retired Air Force Col. Doug Robinson, who wrote for one of the Stealth Fighter Association’s newsletters, picks up the story of how the Klingon Cloaking Device came to be from here:
“We began to stretch our legs and plan deployments using the A-7s as a surrogate for the F-117. We planned the deployment of a few aircraft to Homestead AFB, Florida, and learned from our actions. The OSI was specifically charged with finding out what was going on. We captured them before they got to our perimeter fence at Homestead AFB. The only outward signs that there was something out of the ordinary going on at Homestead was an OSI notation that there were some folks at a nearby motel wearing cowboy boots and other western apparel. We took note of that and were more careful of our “western” markings on later deployments.
We used the A-7 in our deployments to Young Tiger in South Korea and then to Great Britain. It was under our cover story for the A-7 of advanced avionics testing that the Klingon Cloaking Device was developed. We needed some purpose for the A-7s to be so special, and have all the attention and security that seemed to accompany the 4450th wherever we went.
It was in this vein that TSgt’s. Phillip Barta and Charles Baggerly took a BLU-27 napalm bomb shell, reinforced it according to Tactical Air Command instructions for a baggage pod, and constructed the Klingon Cloaking Device.
“We began to stretch our legs and plan deployments using the A-7s as a surrogate for the F-117. We planned the deployment of a few aircraft to Homestead AFB, Florida, and learned from our actions. The OSI was specifically charged with finding out what was going on. We captured them before they got to our perimeter fence at Homestead AFB. The only outward signs that there was something out of the ordinary going on at Homestead was an OSI notation that there were some folks at a nearby motel wearing cowboy boots and other western apparel. We took note of that and were more careful of our “western” markings on later deployments.
We used the A-7 in our deployments to Young Tiger in South Korea and then to Great Britain. It was under our cover story for the A-7 of advanced avionics testing that the Klingon Cloaking Device was developed. We needed some purpose for the A-7s to be so special, and have all the attention and security that seemed to accompany the 4450th wherever we went.
It was in this vein that TSgt’s. Phillip Barta and Charles Baggerly took a BLU-27 napalm bomb shell, reinforced it according to Tactical Air Command instructions for a baggage pod, and constructed the Klingon Cloaking Device.
It has the front lens from an electro-optically guided glide bomb on the nose with a red light that had a soft pulsing glow showing through a ground glass lens. It had numerous blade antennas from the UHF and VHF frequency spectrum and several faux blowout ports similar to those used as exhaust ports for gas grain generators on early generation nuclear weapons. It was truly an awesome looking thing when mounted under the wing of an A-7.
The F-117 Stealth Fighter Program Actually Had A 'Klingon Cloaking Device'
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I ran across these messages on another aviation forum about the LV tailed A-7's UK deployments with the 'avionics test pod'.
Nellis F.16s at Bentwaters + LV A.7s at Woodbridge. FighterControl Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast
also had a spell actually working on Bentwaters airfield whilst LV coded A.7 Corsairs were operating out of Woodbridge; familiarisation flights for F.117 pilots in Europe I believe? ... Again any ideas on the dates and aircraft involved.
The A-7D's were Nellis machines from of the 4450th TG.
They were in at Woodbridge from the 31st Oct 84 until 14th Nov 84, and they returned again from the 8th to 22nd of May 86.
I think they were here conducting trials for the F-117s avionics rather than for F-117 pilot familiarisation.
They were in at Woodbridge from the 31st Oct 84 until 14th Nov 84, and they returned again from the 8th to 22nd of May 86.
I think they were here conducting trials for the F-117s avionics rather than for F-117 pilot familiarisation.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I was at one one of our AD sites during the period in question and was given a route which flew in from our radar horizon on one side and out again with timing and a task to plot any skin paints we got. The answer was none - but IIRC it was with either a T90 or T91 radar - so it was hardly surprising. I would have loved to have a go with with the T85.....
Mind you, they could have cancelled and nobody told us....
Mind you, they could have cancelled and nobody told us....
