Victor as conventional bomber
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Orion, not quite correct on our dates. We actually deployed in early September, held for a week in Aden, and then came on state at Gan for a week before finally relieving the Butterworth Victors at the beginning of October. Late we again dispersed with aircraft to Gan, Tengah and Butterworth. As you say come November it was 'won'. I would have to dig my log book out for actual dates.
There was one Victor that remained at Butterworth throughout our stay as it had some major fault. I believe the organ bay (sic?) was completely filled with fungus as a result of sitting there all alone. It was eventually recovered and flown back to UK.
There was one Victor that remained at Butterworth throughout our stay as it had some major fault. I believe the organ bay (sic?) was completely filled with fungus as a result of sitting there all alone. It was eventually recovered and flown back to UK.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Incidentally, given a copy of the Victor drop CinC SAC had it displayed at Offutt and then requested a similar photograph from the Vulcan, that too was not without problems as the first drop at Aberporth was dropped by the Nav Rad, as outlined by Orionsbelt, before the chase photographer was ready. Poor briefing as the drop was supposedly to be controlled by the range controller.
After the successful drop of 21x1000 lb inert another drop was organised for El Adem range with HE now that was a sight with a wall of flaming sand. I have the slide somewhere.
Years later further drops were organised and 21x1000HE retards dropped from 300 feet over Epi Bay was a sight to behold, again with a mile long line of water spouts.
After the successful drop of 21x1000 lb inert another drop was organised for El Adem range with HE now that was a sight with a wall of flaming sand. I have the slide somewhere.
Years later further drops were organised and 21x1000HE retards dropped from 300 feet over Epi Bay was a sight to behold, again with a mile long line of water spouts.
It's a long time since I flew a Victor 1, 49 years in fact, but I wonder how far a Victor 1 could carry 35 1000 pounders at a max tow of 185,000 pounds? Marham to Leuchars?
In the case of the Tengah/Butterworth detachment the main problem with the Victor 1 with its reliable but hardly overpowered Sapphires was that you were never going to get airborne at anything like the max tow because of the high temperatures, so once you have reduced your fuel load we are probably nearly back to your Marham to Leuchars example in terms of usable range with that full load of bombs.
My last sortie in a Victor K1a just over 40 years ago. Where did that go?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: East Sussex
Age: 86
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps I am just a little older than the rest of you all; but I remember the Valiant could carry 41,000 of bombs. 21,000 in the bomb bay and 10,000 under each wing. The well known underwing tanks could be replaced by what looked like underwing fuel tanks but they held bombs and even had their own bomb doors. Never saw one but I still have a CofG slide rule that shows they actually existed (perhaps!).
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, if you have a map you might be able to do some calcs then.
Gan - Medan (target) - Butterworth.
I think that was the Victor plan. Our's, based on the Observer's Book of Aircraft data (the Victor planning cell at FEAF didn't have any real data) was initially Jakarta. This was not viable for several reasons. We would have been right on strategic war minimums for fuel, the PNR was close to Gan, beyond PNR we would have been committed to overflight of enemy territory with either unserviceable kit or worse, engine(s) out.
Gan - Medan (target) - Butterworth.
I think that was the Victor plan. Our's, based on the Observer's Book of Aircraft data (the Victor planning cell at FEAF didn't have any real data) was initially Jakarta. This was not viable for several reasons. We would have been right on strategic war minimums for fuel, the PNR was close to Gan, beyond PNR we would have been committed to overflight of enemy territory with either unserviceable kit or worse, engine(s) out.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Another Victor Sapphire snippet, the runway at Butterworth was 8,000 feet and the Victor left wheel tracks in the overshoot. In contrast the Vulcan, we used full power (104%) took about 4,500 feet and ATC missed the first take-off.
Orion: 10 Sqn had disbanded as a Victor squadron on 29 February 1964, so any deployment in August must have been 15 Sqn on its own.
Pontifex: Noting your point about underwing pods on the Valiant, C H Barnes' highly detailed "Handley Page Aircraft Since 1907" mentions that underwing bomb pods carrying a further fourteen 1000 lb bombs in each were also considered for the Victor but never manufactured for trials. And, given that WW2 was not in the distant past back then, he lists alternative conventional loads to the thirty-five 1000 pounders: a 22,000 lb Grand Slam, or two 12,000 lb Tallboys, or 3 10,000 lb HC bombs, or even seventeen 2,000 lb Type S mines. But nothing is said about how many of those weapons still existed in stores by the mid-1950s.
Pontifex: Noting your point about underwing pods on the Valiant, C H Barnes' highly detailed "Handley Page Aircraft Since 1907" mentions that underwing bomb pods carrying a further fourteen 1000 lb bombs in each were also considered for the Victor but never manufactured for trials. And, given that WW2 was not in the distant past back then, he lists alternative conventional loads to the thirty-five 1000 pounders: a 22,000 lb Grand Slam, or two 12,000 lb Tallboys, or 3 10,000 lb HC bombs, or even seventeen 2,000 lb Type S mines. But nothing is said about how many of those weapons still existed in stores by the mid-1950s.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tennessee - Smoky Mountains
Age: 55
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Years later further drops were organised and 21x1000HE retards dropped from 300 feet over Epi Bay was a sight to behold, again with a mile long line of water spouts.
"Blimey Sir, isn't that a war crime?"
Thanks to all who replied getting me straight about the heave associated with dropping 35000.
I am ashamed, what with a distinction at A Level Physics. It was 62 years ago, though ......................
I am ashamed, what with a distinction at A Level Physics. It was 62 years ago, though ......................
Last edited by langleybaston; 31st Dec 2016 at 14:19. Reason: speeling
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Brisbane Australia
Age: 81
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This photo has been the subject of a couple of threads in the past.
I was a member of the bombing up team that loaded these bombs. It was only the second time it had been attempted, the first was on initial trials. Being the RAF we had to have a few practice loads with inert bombs as nobody had loaded bomb carriers on the front 2 bomb stations before.The long range tank usually occupied that position.We were told that the 35 bombs had been in the Butterworth Bomb Dump since WW2 and were approaching their use by date.
The bombs were dropped by XH 648, a B1a belonging to 15 Sqn, on the Song Song Bombing Range off Penang Island. The photo was taken by a PR Canberra from Tengah which flew alongside.As I understand it the photo is a still shot from a film of the drop.The Range Safety Officer, an RAAF Sabre pilot, is reported as saying "I'm outta here " when told what was happening.
A couple of days afterwards the Armament Officer showed us the subject photo but because it had been designated Secret we could not have a copy. It was years before it was released.
XH 648 was one of 4 Victors from RAF Cottesmore which, together with 4 from RAF Honnington,were rushed out to RAF Tengah the week before Christmas 1963.All 8 Victors were lined up on the apron and the press invited to a photo shoot which resulted in front page coverage in the Straits Times together with a warning to Indonesia. In the New Year the Cottesmore contingent, having waved the big stick, was moved to RAAF Butterworth. In March the ground crew were flown back to Cottesmore in a British Eagle Brittania which they had just purchased from BOAC. Having been in the Air Movements bar waiting for it to arrive we all gave it a B/F Insp and were not impressed. 3 weeks later the Brittania crashed, with the loss of all souls, on approach to Innsbruck.
I was a member of the bombing up team that loaded these bombs. It was only the second time it had been attempted, the first was on initial trials. Being the RAF we had to have a few practice loads with inert bombs as nobody had loaded bomb carriers on the front 2 bomb stations before.The long range tank usually occupied that position.We were told that the 35 bombs had been in the Butterworth Bomb Dump since WW2 and were approaching their use by date.
The bombs were dropped by XH 648, a B1a belonging to 15 Sqn, on the Song Song Bombing Range off Penang Island. The photo was taken by a PR Canberra from Tengah which flew alongside.As I understand it the photo is a still shot from a film of the drop.The Range Safety Officer, an RAAF Sabre pilot, is reported as saying "I'm outta here " when told what was happening.
A couple of days afterwards the Armament Officer showed us the subject photo but because it had been designated Secret we could not have a copy. It was years before it was released.
XH 648 was one of 4 Victors from RAF Cottesmore which, together with 4 from RAF Honnington,were rushed out to RAF Tengah the week before Christmas 1963.All 8 Victors were lined up on the apron and the press invited to a photo shoot which resulted in front page coverage in the Straits Times together with a warning to Indonesia. In the New Year the Cottesmore contingent, having waved the big stick, was moved to RAAF Butterworth. In March the ground crew were flown back to Cottesmore in a British Eagle Brittania which they had just purchased from BOAC. Having been in the Air Movements bar waiting for it to arrive we all gave it a B/F Insp and were not impressed. 3 weeks later the Brittania crashed, with the loss of all souls, on approach to Innsbruck.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ozleckie, interesting that the photo was Secret as I saw it displayed at HQ SAC in 1965 although I guess that was a pretty secret location 
Kaitakbowler, that's the one, Baz Gowling came down the Cyprus low level route and popped out from below Paramalie West and behind the crowd which was a surprise as all the other aircraft were strictly right-left.
Kaitakbowler, that's the one, Baz Gowling came down the Cyprus low level route and popped out from below Paramalie West and behind the crowd which was a surprise as all the other aircraft were strictly right-left.
A bit further than that. Max fuel uplift on the Victor K1/1a tanker was 86K pounds. Substitute that max bomb load for fuel and that gives you say 50K fuel. We used to reckon 10k fuel used for start up, taxi and climb to TOC. Assuming in an operational situation you might be pla its reliable but hardly overpowered Sapphires was that you were never going to get airborne at anything like the max tow because of the high temperatures, so once you have reduced your fuel load we are probably nearly back to your Marham to Leuchars example in terms of usable range with that full load of bombs.
My last sortie in a Victor K1a just over 40 years ago. Where did that go?
My last sortie in a Victor K1a just over 40 years ago. Where did that go?
Well remember the abysmal take off performance of the K 1and it's 8,700 foot ground roll on Marham,s 9000 foot runway, but could she go , clean, at height !
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 87
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontiflex
I worked on Valiant's for over 4 years, albeit a tanker squadron, I never heard mention of the underwing tank pylons being capable of of carrying bombs.
Perhaps I am just a little older than the rest of you all; but I remember the Valiant could carry 41,000 of bombs. 21,000 in the bomb bay and 10,000 under each wing. The well known underwing tanks could be replaced by what looked like underwing fuel tanks but they held bombs and even had their own bomb doors. Never saw one but I still have a CofG slide rule that shows they actually existed (perhaps!).
For those who may not know, XH 648 is one of the very few surviving Victor Mk 1s, now undergoing a major restoration at the IWM Duxford. It would be great if the opportunity was taken to return her to anti-flash white, but I have an idea she will retain the camouflage carried as a K1a tanker. I never quite understood the logic of camouflaging a tanker, an aircraft that never operated at low level, and in fact the early tanker conversions flew in the original white.
Certainly could, Tony Cunnane, who flew 648 on her final flight to Duxford, relates an occasion when she went supersonic (maybe!) over Paris.
http://tonycunnane.uk/page-337.html
I flew in XH 648 a few times, and witnessed her final departure from Marham to Duxford, described here
http://tonycunnane.uk/page-365.html
but could she go , clean, at height !
http://tonycunnane.uk/page-337.html
I flew in XH 648 a few times, and witnessed her final departure from Marham to Duxford, described here
http://tonycunnane.uk/page-365.html
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 1st Jan 2017 at 17:46.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I never heard mention of the underwing tank pylons being capable of of carrying bombs."
same here - and both Gunston & Mason go into the wing design in some detail and only mention fuel tanks
same here - and both Gunston & Mason go into the wing design in some detail and only mention fuel tanks
The Valiant's wing bomb bays were part of the concept during the design phase. I have seen an illustration where it appeared to be relatively squashed in cross section compared to wing tanks.
The typewritten Pilot's Notes of the early fifties do not mention it; the only early extra service available then was RATOG so it was defunct before it entered service. However, the ability to hang 12,500lbs+ on to a single point of the wing must point at there having to be some reason to make that position so strong.
The typewritten Pilot's Notes of the early fifties do not mention it; the only early extra service available then was RATOG so it was defunct before it entered service. However, the ability to hang 12,500lbs+ on to a single point of the wing must point at there having to be some reason to make that position so strong.
Gentleman Aviator
,were rushed out to RAF Tengah the week before Christmas 1963
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: East Sussex
Age: 86
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen,
I wish I was clever enough to take a photo of my Valiant CoG slide rule to show you all the u/w bomb loading details. Can do the photos but can't do the complicated stuff to get it on your screens! I think they were also intended to hold photo flashes too as certain positions were annotated as "applicable to P.R aircraft only." The only photo flashes I ever flew with were in a separate compartment behind what would have been the bomb bay in a normal bomber.
RATOG was mounted externally on the fuselage. As a very young copilot I flew a RATOG trial with the BCDU at Wittering. It was very impressive but they then had to be dropped on a subsequent run over the field. Not very successful as the parachutes failed to deploy. If my memory serves a max weight Valiant 184000lbs? got airborne in less than 1000 ft. The captain on one flight was a Sqn Ldr Gibson and on another it was Flt Lt Hogg. The aircraft were ?400 and ?872. Keen historians can probably fill in the details. I also flew on a Water Meth trial but I cannot remember the details.
I wish I was clever enough to take a photo of my Valiant CoG slide rule to show you all the u/w bomb loading details. Can do the photos but can't do the complicated stuff to get it on your screens! I think they were also intended to hold photo flashes too as certain positions were annotated as "applicable to P.R aircraft only." The only photo flashes I ever flew with were in a separate compartment behind what would have been the bomb bay in a normal bomber.
RATOG was mounted externally on the fuselage. As a very young copilot I flew a RATOG trial with the BCDU at Wittering. It was very impressive but they then had to be dropped on a subsequent run over the field. Not very successful as the parachutes failed to deploy. If my memory serves a max weight Valiant 184000lbs? got airborne in less than 1000 ft. The captain on one flight was a Sqn Ldr Gibson and on another it was Flt Lt Hogg. The aircraft were ?400 and ?872. Keen historians can probably fill in the details. I also flew on a Water Meth trial but I cannot remember the details.