Creamed Off at BFTS?
Interesting! When I went through Valley (on the Gnat) I was rubbish and it was considered that i would never be good enough to instruct. In those days, one was good enough to be a creamy or good enough to one day be a QFI or never good enough 
. Many years later, as an A cat QFI in Standards at an FTS I met the instructor who said I would never be good enough to be an instructor. I reminded him of that as I did his refresher course. The moral of all that is 'Never say never'.
. Many years later, as an A cat QFI in Standards at an FTS I met the instructor who said I would never be good enough to be an instructor. I reminded him of that as I did his refresher course. The moral of all that is 'Never say never'.
Couldn't agree more.
When the wings fell off the Valiant, I was asked by a S/L what I would like for my next posting. CFS said I whereupon he fell about laughing, saying I would NEVER be a QFI , no ability, wrong personality etc. etc.
Fast forward 5 years and he is on a jet refresher, meets me in a corridor, asking where the standards office was, he was about to do his FHT with them.
To his shock, I took him into my office to brief him on his sortie. Lots if spinning and a very analytical debrief, but to his credit he saw the irony !
And there's more. One senior officer who obviously didn't think much of me, went his way and I went mine. We met again, some years later, when he was my first officer !
Never , ever, say , never , well hardly ever.
When the wings fell off the Valiant, I was asked by a S/L what I would like for my next posting. CFS said I whereupon he fell about laughing, saying I would NEVER be a QFI , no ability, wrong personality etc. etc.
Fast forward 5 years and he is on a jet refresher, meets me in a corridor, asking where the standards office was, he was about to do his FHT with them.
To his shock, I took him into my office to brief him on his sortie. Lots if spinning and a very analytical debrief, but to his credit he saw the irony !
And there's more. One senior officer who obviously didn't think much of me, went his way and I went mine. We met again, some years later, when he was my first officer !
Never , ever, say , never , well hardly ever.
When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.
One other thing I should have said about the "creamie" system in general is that those who are not "creamed" reach the end of their first front-line tours with at least some scope to decide whether they would like to pursue the "QWI" route, the "QFI" route, or exchange/cross-over to another type. Bright young things hoping to join the career ladder would probably choose one of the first two options, look to end their second tour "above average", and off they go.
Those who were creamed have fewer options. They cannot realistically pursue the QWI route without delaying promotion, and depending on how they performed on their front-line tour, they can easily get pigeonholed into the "training" rather than "tactical" supervisory roles should they stay on a front-line type. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but at the moment of creaming the FTS graduate cannot be expected to know enough about life at the front-line to know how he/she would like their later career to develop. Creaming all but takes those decisions out of their hands.
Those who were creamed have fewer options. They cannot realistically pursue the QWI route without delaying promotion, and depending on how they performed on their front-line tour, they can easily get pigeonholed into the "training" rather than "tactical" supervisory roles should they stay on a front-line type. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but at the moment of creaming the FTS graduate cannot be expected to know enough about life at the front-line to know how he/she would like their later career to develop. Creaming all but takes those decisions out of their hands.
ES
To be fair to the Creamie filth they seem to do just fine out of it IMHO. Well placed for exchanges with a Q tick and Above Average far earlier than most (provided they get an A2 - which they normally do).
I do believe, however, that anyone volunteering to be a Creamie should be examined by a Doctor and kicked in the bits (as a minimum).
BV
To be fair to the Creamie filth they seem to do just fine out of it IMHO. Well placed for exchanges with a Q tick and Above Average far earlier than most (provided they get an A2 - which they normally do).
I do believe, however, that anyone volunteering to be a Creamie should be examined by a Doctor and kicked in the bits (as a minimum).
BV
sharpend wrote:
Well, bluntie old chum, that's why you were such a good TWU instructor at Heaven-in-Devon! You knew how people could struggle at FJ training and would do what you could to help.
36 years ago, my fondest memory of flying at Chiv (apart from bombing and strafing) was that LL tactical formation with you wazzing about over West Devon...
When's the book coming out...??
I was once told that one couldn't oneself to be a 'real' QFI unless you were A2/MG/IRE. How many of those are still around these days...
Interesting! When I went through Valley (on the Gnat) I was rubbish and it was considered that I would never be good enough to instruct. In those days, one was good enough to be a creamy or good enough to one day be a QFI or never good enough . Many years later, as an A cat QFI in Standards at an FTS I met the instructor who said I would never be good enough to be an instructor. I reminded him of that as I did his refresher course. The moral of all that is 'Never say never'.
. Many years later, as an A cat QFI in Standards at an FTS I met the instructor who said I would never be good enough to be an instructor. I reminded him of that as I did his refresher course. The moral of all that is 'Never say never'.
36 years ago, my fondest memory of flying at Chiv (apart from bombing and strafing) was that LL tactical formation with you wazzing about over West Devon...
When's the book coming out...??
I was once told that one couldn't oneself to be a 'real' QFI unless you were A2/MG/IRE. How many of those are still around these days...
The whole creamie system seemed to work reasonably well in my day. There were the sharp individuals who were creamed off and then went on to do very well in their front line career. There were the slightly more "protected" individuals who had the ability but a creamie tour allowed them the space to mature and they subsequently flourished and there were those of us who were told we would never amount to more than a training risk who somehow managed to end up in something fast and pointy anyway! The only downside that I could see was that the inevitable stain of a CFS Qual never quite left them and so they were never truly (a few exceptions apart) capable on the front line with a proper QWI qual.
A friend of mine from 7 FTS became a Hawk creamie, promised choice of types once he'd completed his Valley tour. His preference was Harriers, but sent to Tornado GRs instead, as apparently the Harrier force was sucking up too many "above average" types, and there needed to be a better distribution across the FJ world. Not too happy, but went on to have a very successful career, including GW1.
o be fair to the Creamie filth they seem to do just fine out of it IMHO. Well placed for exchanges with a Q tick and Above Average far earlier than most
Good points made all round, I escaped the creamy bit, and got the QWI qual instead. Duly had a nice instructional tour on F15, as a Pilot Instructor, without having to do any of the CFS stuff. Teaching pilots to fly the jet was very much easier than teaching them to operate it.
Dear Ken Hair visited me and was very distressed to find I was teaching ab-initios on the F15 without being a QFI!!
Dear Ken Hair visited me and was very distressed to find I was teaching ab-initios on the F15 without being a QFI!!
BV and others,
My point wasn't that creamies can't do well in their later careers; obviously many have. It was that they have fewer choices at the end of their front-line tour, probable loss of the QWI option being the most obvious. That doesn't stop them having good careers, but it does run counter to what I would consider a good personnel management principle of allowing the strongest performers to have the greatest scope to shape their futures.
My point wasn't that creamies can't do well in their later careers; obviously many have. It was that they have fewer choices at the end of their front-line tour, probable loss of the QWI option being the most obvious. That doesn't stop them having good careers, but it does run counter to what I would consider a good personnel management principle of allowing the strongest performers to have the greatest scope to shape their futures.
