USAF Thunderbird down

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

According to the schedule, the Air Force Academy graduation ceremony went from 9:30 am to 1 pm, with the Thunderbird flyover at the very end, during the hat toss. Peterson AFB is about 15 miles away. According to the Thunderbirds website the crash happened at 1:00 pm, and news reports say the first person at the scene of the crash was Air Force Staff Sgt. Alexander Rodriguez, who said "I saw the cockpit was empty and checked for any fuel hazard — there was a single fuel leak on the right side."

Which doesn't mean it wasn't fuel exhaustion, but it sure makes a lot of these posts sound like something The Donald would say.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

No fire after crash = no fuel on board.

No fuel on board = no fuel leak. Yet according to Staff Sgt. Alexander Rodriguez, first man on the scene, "there was a single fuel leak on the right side." Are you calling SSgt Alexander a liar?

There are also published reports stating that fuel had to be pumped out before the aircraft could be moved, and that the cause was engine failure.

The truth will come out soon enough, and I will remember this thread. I will post the truth, along with some choice quotes from this thread, along with the names of the posters. I'm an Air Force veteran, and I don't take kindly to insulting BS claims that Maj. Alex Turner flew to fuel exhaustion.

[tartare]

As a bug smasher pilot - does an F-16 have a certain amount of unusable fuel in tanks - just like my Cessna?
Which might account for fuel leaking even if there was fuel exhaustion (with no insult suggested intended to the good Major either I might add).
And yes - curious about the Joker call too... out of gas?

Hmmm - from Google:

-Air ejectors in each reservoir tank automatically expel air
-Powered fuel pumps work continually to pump fuel from internal tanks to reservoirs
-Powered system also scavenges tanks to minimize unusable fuel by using electrically driven pumps and pumps powered by bleed fuel pressure from the engine manifold

So presumably it can scavenge almost every drop of fuel in the seven or so tanks if needed.

Joker
Fuel state above BINGO at which separation/bugout/event termination should begin.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by PrivtPilotRadarTech

No fuel on board = no fuel leak. Yet according to Staff Sgt. Alexander Rodriguez, first man on the scene, "there was a single fuel leak on the right side." Are you calling SSgt Alexander a liar?

There are also published reports stating that fuel had to be pumped out before the aircraft could be moved, and that the cause was engine failure.

The truth will come out soon enough, and I will remember this thread. I will post the truth, along with some choice quotes from this thread, along with the names of the posters. I'm an Air Force veteran, and I don't take kindly to insulting BS claims that Maj. Alex Turner flew to fuel exhaustion.

Back in 1987, Blue Angel 5 had a flame out during a maneuver (El Centro, winter practice for the Blues) while inverted. As I came to understand this (over a beer some years later with a former Blues engine mechanic) had to do with F-18A fuel pumps and fuel transfer. (A fix was eventually arrived at). As with the helicopter that crashed onto a Glasgow pub a couple of years ago, you can have fuel starvation to the engines without running out of fuel in the bird. A given fuel system may have a malfunction or a feature that can set that up. All that said, the F-16 is a mature aircraft and I'd be very surprised if it fuel system, at this point in its life, has such oddities.

[sandiego89]

I think I recall the 1987 El Centro crash was a double engine flame out due to the max inverted time being well exceeded. Something like 60 seconds sticks into my mind for some reason- a quick google search did not turn up the investigation results. So there was a fuel pump "issue", but also human factors or training issues perhaps. Many aircraft have limits on inverted time due to oil and fuel system capabilities.

[ShotOne]

Before you get too high-strung, prvtpilot rad tech, this is a rumour forum. If you're that offended by rumours perhaps you should spend your spare time on other things. On the other hand, if you actually know why the engine stopped we'd be delighted to hear.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by ShotOne

Before you get too high-strung, prvtpilot rad tech, this is a rumour forum. If you're that offended by rumours perhaps you should spend your spare time on other things. On the other hand, if you actually know why the engine stopped we'd be delighted to hear.

He was responding to people who also don't know why it stopped but were speculating anyway, and in so doing making assumptions.
That happens here too.

[ShotOne]

of course it does....its a rumour forum! The point is his assertion, accompanied with threats,("I will post the names....") about the fuel exhaustion being BS is every bit as speculative as the original claim.

You brought in the Glasgow police helicopter crash, lonewolf. While you rightly said it had fuel on board, this fuel was rendered unusable by being in a tank to which the transfer pumps had been selected OFF". We may never know why the experienced ex-military pilot ignored the warning lights.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by ShotOne

of course it does....its a rumour forum! The point is his assertion, accompanied with threats,("I will post the names....") about the fuel exhaustion being BS is every bit as speculative as the original claim.

You brought in the Glasgow police helicopter crash, lonewolf. While you rightly said it had fuel on board, this fuel was rendered unusable by being in a tank to which the transfer pumps had been selected OFF". We may never know why the experienced ex-military pilot ignored the warning lights.

Indeed. I was trying to point out that a variety of aircraft have systems features that can result in having fuel on board but the fuel not getting to the engines. (We used to have an issue with the aux tanks on H-2's that could bite you if you weren't vigilant, or if the bleed air system malfunctioned ...)

[ORAC]

Lots of possible reasons. Of interest, at the time this book was written, in at least 6 x F-16s crashes corrosion between contact pins causing the main fuel shutoff valve to close uncommanded was implicated as a cause.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0crash&f=false

[Bevo]

Given the relatively good condition of the crashed aircraft, the cause should be relatively easier to establish.

[T28B]

Originally Posted by Bevo

Given the relatively good condition of the crashed aircraft, the cause should be relatively easier to establish.

That, and the advantage of having a living pilot available to discuss what happened with the accident investigators.

[Dougie M]

Let's hope that they get the right guys in.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Update from the Colorado Springs newspaper, The Gazette:

The F-16's engine burns a derivative of kerosene that poses fire and environmental risks. The tanks were emptied Monday.

"We defueled almost 100 gallons," Gemeinhardt said.

That would be Lt. Col. Chad Gemeinhardt, who heads the 21st Civil Engineer Squadron and led the base's emergency operations center after the crash.

Also, according to the Gazette:

The Air Force has not said what doomed the $25 million jet, but several sources say engine failure is suspected. A board will review the crash in an investigation expected to last weeks and will include combing over the wreck in a hangar at Peterson.

That garbage about Maj. Turner running out of fuel is clearly propaganda created elsewhere for political purposes. Only a gullible fool would fall for it.

[sandiego89]

Any updates on the investigation results yet, rumor or otherwise? Would seem the answers would be understood rather quickly on this one...

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Shortly after the incident it was said a preliminary report on the cause would come out "in August." I've checked periodically, the only news I've seen is the release of the radio traffic audio. The raw audio is very poor, long periods of loud buzzing with brief bits of unintelligible and barely intelligible speech. According to published reports, the part of interest goes like this:

"Turner said his jet was having engine problems. About 10 seconds later, he said, 'I'm putting it away from somebody's house here. I'm getting out.'"

I could not make out the first part, where he's talking about the problem, but the quoted part seems accurate. Kudos to Maj. Turner for taking the time to avoid those houses.

[ORAC]

Listening to the transcript I make it out as 2 distinct statements; i.e. It cycled off/on, I am in the descent, rather than it cycled whilst he was descending.

LISTEN: FAA releases audio from Colorado Springs Thunderbird crash | FOX21News.com

"It suddenly cycled the engine off and on."

"In the descent"

[sandiego89]

Tick tock, it is now October and not even a preliminary yet? Hmm. Often at this point it would suggest disagreement between the investigators and approvers up the chain- sometimes political, sometimes not enough or contradictory information, sometimes very complicated issues. But if it were an engine issue you would think there would be some sort of hint that they were investigating a complex mechanical issue...


We do have this from last month with this ""There's a lot involved in this," said Melissa Walther, a spokeswoman.." Sounds like it...
Investigation Continues Months after Thunderbird Crash in Colorado | Military.com

[OK465]

complex mechanical issue

SD 89,

I've been told TB F-16s are equipped with a 'pinky switch' on the throttle for immediate AB light without moving the throttle outboard.

Prevalent unverified, unofficial, e-mail circulating rumor from the darkest recesses of fighter pilot frequented sleazy bars is that this special mod may effect the other normal stops in the throttle quadrant adversely if there is a 'malfunction'.

PR is probably searching for just the right words.

[Wander00]

OK - What, along the lines of "we screwed up"