Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC
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...And talk of Many Things...
NigG (#216),
Whole series of questions:
Fine figure of a Sahib (monarch of all he surveys!) He is wearing a tunic (plus shirt, collar and tie) and shorts. In my recollection, with that kit on top we would always be wearing slacks. Bush jacket or shirt with shorts - fine. But not this ! (our US friends, sweating in their trews, greatly envied us even if we did look like overgrown Boy Scouts).
Line of ribbons; must have been in WWI.
What, in the name of all that's good and holy, has he got on his legs ? Looks like a long leather puttee or boot (snakes ?) with a peep-toe showing chaplis (Jesus sandals) ?? Standard parade wear (with shorts) would have been long khaki woolen stockings and black shoes.
What is the bike ? Something tells me that it's a Matchless, but I don't know why.
The Bombay Bowler was de rigeur then, I suppose. We chucked all ours away and wore Caps SD, or (preferably) Aussie Bush Hats. Just as good, and you could screw them up and push them into any odd corner of a cockpit.
Background looks like a Hill station, (down on the plains would be far too hot for tunic, shirt and tie).
Yes, it was "the life of Reilly". They lived "high on the hog", as befitted a herrenvolk. Every European out there knew that, apart from anything else, he was there to rule. Kindly if you can, harshly if you must, but always rule. That was the way it had always been, and (we thought) always would be.
The beauty of it all was that Government of India paid for all this: it didn't cost the British taxpayer a penny. Not only that, they also paid for me (roughly at twice the home rate) as an officer - but our troops were paid by the UK at only the rupee equivalent of UK pay ! (work that one out, if you can).
I've always thought that my five years of war (3½ in India/Burma) were the university education to which I could never otherwise have aspired.
Lastly:
Now you must, absolutely must, tell us all about it ! 
Danny.
...I can't resist adding a shot of him!...
Fine figure of a Sahib (monarch of all he surveys!) He is wearing a tunic (plus shirt, collar and tie) and shorts. In my recollection, with that kit on top we would always be wearing slacks. Bush jacket or shirt with shorts - fine. But not this ! (our US friends, sweating in their trews, greatly envied us even if we did look like overgrown Boy Scouts).
Line of ribbons; must have been in WWI.
What, in the name of all that's good and holy, has he got on his legs ? Looks like a long leather puttee or boot (snakes ?) with a peep-toe showing chaplis (Jesus sandals) ?? Standard parade wear (with shorts) would have been long khaki woolen stockings and black shoes.
What is the bike ? Something tells me that it's a Matchless, but I don't know why.
The Bombay Bowler was de rigeur then, I suppose. We chucked all ours away and wore Caps SD, or (preferably) Aussie Bush Hats. Just as good, and you could screw them up and push them into any odd corner of a cockpit.
Background looks like a Hill station, (down on the plains would be far too hot for tunic, shirt and tie).
...Materially, it was a jump into the realms of the affluent middle class...
The beauty of it all was that Government of India paid for all this: it didn't cost the British taxpayer a penny. Not only that, they also paid for me (roughly at twice the home rate) as an officer - but our troops were paid by the UK at only the rupee equivalent of UK pay ! (work that one out, if you can).
... My generation has had the opportunity of higher education, the older generations had the opportunities of Empire!...
Lastly:
...Having walked around many of the British Indian hill stations (before they were spoilt by modern development) I have such regret not to have been there in the old days...
Danny.
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Danny
I was confident that you'd have some interesting snippets to add! I dug out the original photo of my grandfather on the motorcycle. Yes, he's wearing dark puttees on top of long socks, which descend to ankle height shoes. There's a flaw on the photo which, together with a highly polished toe cap, gives the false impression of sandals. On his arm is the Royal Cypher, so he was then a 'Conductor', that is an Indian Army Ordnance Corps 'Warrant Officer First Class'. That dates the photo to 1938-9 (I thought it earlier). My mother, his daughter, says they were then stationed at Trimulgerry, Secundrabad, in the Deccan of South India. So the background wasn't a Hill Station, as you surmised. The uniform does seem to be quirky, but my mother confirms that such puttees were standard uniform. I guess the British Indian Army was a little antiquated. We do have other shots of him, when commissioned during wartime, wearing the standard cotton tunic, so evidently the Indian Army became a bit more 'in vogue'.
You mention his ribbons... he did indeed serve in WW1. He was in the Royal Field Artillery and went out to Belgium to take part in the first set-to: the Battle of Mons. He wrote a somewhat sketchy account of his ten months in combat. Since it's topical, with the centenary of the Somme, here's an excerpt from his time at Mons, when a 21-year-old Bombardier (Corporal). The comments in [ ] are my additions, made when I made a document of his journal.
In the 1920's after WW1
August 20th[1914] Entrained – a very long and tedious journey, broken by numerous halts at large towns. French people very good – dishing out tea, coffee, cigarettes, etc. We gave our cap badges and shoulder titles to them as souvenirs. Arrived at ---------- and bivouacked for the night.
[‘Bivouacing’ means sleeping outside without a tent. The train journey took them from France into Belgium, arriving close to the city of Mons, to join the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) facing the advance of the German 1st Army. William arrived on the second day of the battle when the bulk of the British forces had withdrawn to secondary defensive positions, but his Brigade’s guns were brought to bear on the attacking Germans. William describes their move up to the battle area, having disembarked from the train].
August 21st Route continued by march – very long march.
August 22nd Still pushing forward as hard as we could go.
August 23rd - Sunday – marched on till noon – having heard enemy’s outposts – patrols not far away – in a hurry to engage him. At noon arrived at the village of Jivry – near Mons. The Colonel went to reconnoitre – we watered and fed. Suddenly we had to take off the nose bags [from the horses] and get a move on – enemy only two miles away. 22nd Battery got into a bad place but was brought out in time to avoid any casualties. 50th and 70th Batteries went into action on the hill above the village. Brigade Staff – Colonel, Adjutant, Orderly Officer, myself, Bombardier Broadly and two Gunners went up as observing party. Commenced digging an observation trench. 50th Battery opened fire on about one Brigade of German Cavalry – almost wiped ‘em out – 50th and 70th then turned their attention to the Enemy’s artillery who were now shelling our infantry. This drew their fire – firstly on 70th then on the whole Brigade – what a day for the “Bhoys”. Our observation trench – being dug in very chalky ground – showed up plainly and was consequently heavily shelled by the Enemy. Oh for water – we had about a pint between us – it soon went. We were digging handfuls [of dirt] out as we just could – I got a bullet through my haversack – for seven hours we were bombarded continually – a fine baptism of fire indeed. Every time any of us showed our heads a shell screamed over at us – we were in line [of sight of their guns]. One shell burst on the ground 18 inches behind the trench – we thought of all our friends at home – all of those we loved – of our past lives – death seemed near – it was our Baptism. As darkness came over, the fire slackened down a bit and at length the enemy only sent one shell over every quarter of an hour. It always burst in the same place – about 300 yards behind us – we grew brave at about 11pm. I had to get the Telephone Detachment up and lay a line to 50th Battery. This over, I sent away the detachment and went back to the trench for the purpose of deepening and working it up generally – by daylight we had it finished to perfection – [later] we had to change the position of the observing station – and [here] commenced to dig like hell as the Enemy were at us again.
His journal continues in rather less detail, describing his part in the Battles of the Marne and First battle of Ypres. In the latter, the Artillery were located close behind the Infantry and his unit was nearly over-run by the Prussian Guard, who had broken through the Black Watch. They had a hell of a time due to heavy artillery bombardment. A later short excerpt, gives us a glimpse of the Royal Flying Corps:
Feb 8th[1915] After 3 days on the move, we took up a new position at GIVENCHY on the side of LA BASSEE CANAL. This had been an extremely hot shop but seemed at the arrival of the 2nd Divisional Artillery to cool down a great deal. We gave them many bombardments which they didn’t appear to like at all.
20th February – gave our greatest (up to the present) demonstration, by bombardment of a German position (called by me) DUCK’S BILL. The infantry, as always before, said our fire was disastrous to the Allemandes, who retired. Our people then advanced on the position.
March 1st Still in the same position – nothing doing – (still sweating on leave).
10th March We adopted the offensive and pushed forward in parts of the line. In this particular section of the line we could not get through the German defences – the barbed wire was of an extremely strong nature and the enemy’s machine guns did a deal of destruction amongst our infantry. [Note: the Infantry largely depended on the massive artillery barrage, laid down before they attacked, to cut the barbed wire entanglements positioned in front of the enemy trenches.] We were continuing the attack on 11th and 12th but finally had to break it off. 12th to 18th nothing of note happened. 18th I was laying out telephone wire to 56th Battery and when near CUINCHY I got sniped at a bit. One fellow nearly winged me but, as I always say, “the German bullet to hit me has not yet been made”.
[Snipers on both sides, equipped with rifles fitted with telescopic sights, carefully concealed themselves at suitable vantage points, and accounted for many casualties. A few months earlier, the Germans removed the spikes from the top of their helmets, in view of the number of casualties that Allied snipers were inflicting on them].
31st March. Nothing of any great interest has occurred since the 12th. The weather has changed for the better and aircraft of both sides have been very active. Every day we have good entertainments from the anti-aircraft guns who – on both sides - give the aviators a hot time. The German airmen mostly scuttle when fired at, but ours are plucky to the extreme. Nothing seems to frighten them, though many have close shaves. Still sweating on that leave. (What will April bring, I wonder?) We have now been in action 9 months so suppose we will soon go out to rest.
Bleriots of the Royal Flying Corps, 1914
A little earlier he described some of his experiences at the battle of the Marne, and later describes a visit from a German aircraft:
On Monday morning we crossed behind 6th Infantry Brigade and the whole drew up in a sheltered valley below the village of VERNIEUL which is on the Aune – a few miles northwest of SOISSONS. No sooner had we drawn up than the enemy introduced a new gun which fired tremendous shells – afterwards nicknamed by us as “Jack Johnsons”, “Black Marias”, “Big Willies” and several other equally idiotic names. One horse was killed and the infantry who, like ourselves, were massed, moved forward – we moving on to a more sheltered position. It was however found that the infantry were shortly opposed by vastly superior numbers and could not push on. Accordingly our Brigade, 34th and 44th Howitzer Brigade were pushed forward to assist them - and we did, but not without serious losses to the personnel and horses of the wagon lines. We stopped in that position for 7 days – it was like Hell. [But] when we eventually left, not a man had the ‘nerve’ of the smallest degree.
(I forgot to mention that [in the very first action] at Mons we got 3 of our 18 guns smashed – our casualties were 5 killed and about 35 wounded).
Here, again, we lost 4 more guns – the work of our new friend Jack One. A sub-section’s gun of 22nd Battery was completely destroyed – with the whole of its detachment and the Section Officer. The other three guns, of 50th Battery, were smashed but the gunners were away – having been ordered away from the guns, owing to the terrific fire directed upon the Battery. On the morning – before daylight – of the 8th day, the Brigade – less [the crippled] 50th Battery, moved to a position about a mile further back. The new position was on a thickly wooded hill near the village of BOURG and for 8 days we were able –unobserved – to simply massacre the Hordes of Germans. It was possible for us – from our specially constructed look-outs on the hill front – to observe the majority of our fire. It was extremely effective. The Germans searched for us with big guns and small but never once, for the 8 days found their mark. Then on the 9th day, an aeroplane, showing the British flag, came hovering over us – we continued firing and the aeroplane went away to the German lines. Shortly afterwards we were again introduced to “Jack” and some high explosive shrapnel as well. Still, in the three weeks during which we stopped in the position we had only two casualties – a fact showing the extremely fine position we had. We moved from BOURG one evening and marched about 10 miles to the village of BRENELLE – another section of the Aisne area – and stopped there for about a fortnight. Just a few spare “Jacks” were our share there – it was quiet.
Regarding my visits to the British Indian Hill Stations, my various mini-adventures aren't really up to being described here... an expedition into the hills here, a dose of malaria there, etc. But I recall the enchanting British bungalows, with traditional, Mediterranean-style tiled roofs, verandas and servants' outhouses. I got to look around one, having been let in by the caretaker... it was bare inside, but it gave some sense of how it would have been. At Mount Abu, there was the Club, there again I was allowed to look around. This was fascinating... a time-warp... everything as it had been, from library, card tables, 1920's typewriter, furnishings, etc. The Hill Sations had many of the old public buildings still standing, the churches and cemeteries being very moving. In many places the ambiance was enchanting... a 'little Surrey'... country lanes, cricket grounds, and viewpoints over the plains below. At Ootacamund, I was able to make a visit to my mother's Victorian-built school, to see the dormitories she slept in and the corridors she walked through. However, with the recent rise of the Indian middle class, I understand the Hill stations have been spoiled by modern hotels and other insensitive commercial developments... alas!
I was confident that you'd have some interesting snippets to add! I dug out the original photo of my grandfather on the motorcycle. Yes, he's wearing dark puttees on top of long socks, which descend to ankle height shoes. There's a flaw on the photo which, together with a highly polished toe cap, gives the false impression of sandals. On his arm is the Royal Cypher, so he was then a 'Conductor', that is an Indian Army Ordnance Corps 'Warrant Officer First Class'. That dates the photo to 1938-9 (I thought it earlier). My mother, his daughter, says they were then stationed at Trimulgerry, Secundrabad, in the Deccan of South India. So the background wasn't a Hill Station, as you surmised. The uniform does seem to be quirky, but my mother confirms that such puttees were standard uniform. I guess the British Indian Army was a little antiquated. We do have other shots of him, when commissioned during wartime, wearing the standard cotton tunic, so evidently the Indian Army became a bit more 'in vogue'.
You mention his ribbons... he did indeed serve in WW1. He was in the Royal Field Artillery and went out to Belgium to take part in the first set-to: the Battle of Mons. He wrote a somewhat sketchy account of his ten months in combat. Since it's topical, with the centenary of the Somme, here's an excerpt from his time at Mons, when a 21-year-old Bombardier (Corporal). The comments in [ ] are my additions, made when I made a document of his journal.
In the 1920's after WW1
August 20th[1914] Entrained – a very long and tedious journey, broken by numerous halts at large towns. French people very good – dishing out tea, coffee, cigarettes, etc. We gave our cap badges and shoulder titles to them as souvenirs. Arrived at ---------- and bivouacked for the night.
[‘Bivouacing’ means sleeping outside without a tent. The train journey took them from France into Belgium, arriving close to the city of Mons, to join the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) facing the advance of the German 1st Army. William arrived on the second day of the battle when the bulk of the British forces had withdrawn to secondary defensive positions, but his Brigade’s guns were brought to bear on the attacking Germans. William describes their move up to the battle area, having disembarked from the train].
August 21st Route continued by march – very long march.
August 22nd Still pushing forward as hard as we could go.
August 23rd - Sunday – marched on till noon – having heard enemy’s outposts – patrols not far away – in a hurry to engage him. At noon arrived at the village of Jivry – near Mons. The Colonel went to reconnoitre – we watered and fed. Suddenly we had to take off the nose bags [from the horses] and get a move on – enemy only two miles away. 22nd Battery got into a bad place but was brought out in time to avoid any casualties. 50th and 70th Batteries went into action on the hill above the village. Brigade Staff – Colonel, Adjutant, Orderly Officer, myself, Bombardier Broadly and two Gunners went up as observing party. Commenced digging an observation trench. 50th Battery opened fire on about one Brigade of German Cavalry – almost wiped ‘em out – 50th and 70th then turned their attention to the Enemy’s artillery who were now shelling our infantry. This drew their fire – firstly on 70th then on the whole Brigade – what a day for the “Bhoys”. Our observation trench – being dug in very chalky ground – showed up plainly and was consequently heavily shelled by the Enemy. Oh for water – we had about a pint between us – it soon went. We were digging handfuls [of dirt] out as we just could – I got a bullet through my haversack – for seven hours we were bombarded continually – a fine baptism of fire indeed. Every time any of us showed our heads a shell screamed over at us – we were in line [of sight of their guns]. One shell burst on the ground 18 inches behind the trench – we thought of all our friends at home – all of those we loved – of our past lives – death seemed near – it was our Baptism. As darkness came over, the fire slackened down a bit and at length the enemy only sent one shell over every quarter of an hour. It always burst in the same place – about 300 yards behind us – we grew brave at about 11pm. I had to get the Telephone Detachment up and lay a line to 50th Battery. This over, I sent away the detachment and went back to the trench for the purpose of deepening and working it up generally – by daylight we had it finished to perfection – [later] we had to change the position of the observing station – and [here] commenced to dig like hell as the Enemy were at us again.
His journal continues in rather less detail, describing his part in the Battles of the Marne and First battle of Ypres. In the latter, the Artillery were located close behind the Infantry and his unit was nearly over-run by the Prussian Guard, who had broken through the Black Watch. They had a hell of a time due to heavy artillery bombardment. A later short excerpt, gives us a glimpse of the Royal Flying Corps:
Feb 8th[1915] After 3 days on the move, we took up a new position at GIVENCHY on the side of LA BASSEE CANAL. This had been an extremely hot shop but seemed at the arrival of the 2nd Divisional Artillery to cool down a great deal. We gave them many bombardments which they didn’t appear to like at all.
20th February – gave our greatest (up to the present) demonstration, by bombardment of a German position (called by me) DUCK’S BILL. The infantry, as always before, said our fire was disastrous to the Allemandes, who retired. Our people then advanced on the position.
March 1st Still in the same position – nothing doing – (still sweating on leave).
10th March We adopted the offensive and pushed forward in parts of the line. In this particular section of the line we could not get through the German defences – the barbed wire was of an extremely strong nature and the enemy’s machine guns did a deal of destruction amongst our infantry. [Note: the Infantry largely depended on the massive artillery barrage, laid down before they attacked, to cut the barbed wire entanglements positioned in front of the enemy trenches.] We were continuing the attack on 11th and 12th but finally had to break it off. 12th to 18th nothing of note happened. 18th I was laying out telephone wire to 56th Battery and when near CUINCHY I got sniped at a bit. One fellow nearly winged me but, as I always say, “the German bullet to hit me has not yet been made”.
[Snipers on both sides, equipped with rifles fitted with telescopic sights, carefully concealed themselves at suitable vantage points, and accounted for many casualties. A few months earlier, the Germans removed the spikes from the top of their helmets, in view of the number of casualties that Allied snipers were inflicting on them].
31st March. Nothing of any great interest has occurred since the 12th. The weather has changed for the better and aircraft of both sides have been very active. Every day we have good entertainments from the anti-aircraft guns who – on both sides - give the aviators a hot time. The German airmen mostly scuttle when fired at, but ours are plucky to the extreme. Nothing seems to frighten them, though many have close shaves. Still sweating on that leave. (What will April bring, I wonder?) We have now been in action 9 months so suppose we will soon go out to rest.
Bleriots of the Royal Flying Corps, 1914
A little earlier he described some of his experiences at the battle of the Marne, and later describes a visit from a German aircraft:
On Monday morning we crossed behind 6th Infantry Brigade and the whole drew up in a sheltered valley below the village of VERNIEUL which is on the Aune – a few miles northwest of SOISSONS. No sooner had we drawn up than the enemy introduced a new gun which fired tremendous shells – afterwards nicknamed by us as “Jack Johnsons”, “Black Marias”, “Big Willies” and several other equally idiotic names. One horse was killed and the infantry who, like ourselves, were massed, moved forward – we moving on to a more sheltered position. It was however found that the infantry were shortly opposed by vastly superior numbers and could not push on. Accordingly our Brigade, 34th and 44th Howitzer Brigade were pushed forward to assist them - and we did, but not without serious losses to the personnel and horses of the wagon lines. We stopped in that position for 7 days – it was like Hell. [But] when we eventually left, not a man had the ‘nerve’ of the smallest degree.
(I forgot to mention that [in the very first action] at Mons we got 3 of our 18 guns smashed – our casualties were 5 killed and about 35 wounded).
Here, again, we lost 4 more guns – the work of our new friend Jack One. A sub-section’s gun of 22nd Battery was completely destroyed – with the whole of its detachment and the Section Officer. The other three guns, of 50th Battery, were smashed but the gunners were away – having been ordered away from the guns, owing to the terrific fire directed upon the Battery. On the morning – before daylight – of the 8th day, the Brigade – less [the crippled] 50th Battery, moved to a position about a mile further back. The new position was on a thickly wooded hill near the village of BOURG and for 8 days we were able –unobserved – to simply massacre the Hordes of Germans. It was possible for us – from our specially constructed look-outs on the hill front – to observe the majority of our fire. It was extremely effective. The Germans searched for us with big guns and small but never once, for the 8 days found their mark. Then on the 9th day, an aeroplane, showing the British flag, came hovering over us – we continued firing and the aeroplane went away to the German lines. Shortly afterwards we were again introduced to “Jack” and some high explosive shrapnel as well. Still, in the three weeks during which we stopped in the position we had only two casualties – a fact showing the extremely fine position we had. We moved from BOURG one evening and marched about 10 miles to the village of BRENELLE – another section of the Aisne area – and stopped there for about a fortnight. Just a few spare “Jacks” were our share there – it was quiet.
Regarding my visits to the British Indian Hill Stations, my various mini-adventures aren't really up to being described here... an expedition into the hills here, a dose of malaria there, etc. But I recall the enchanting British bungalows, with traditional, Mediterranean-style tiled roofs, verandas and servants' outhouses. I got to look around one, having been let in by the caretaker... it was bare inside, but it gave some sense of how it would have been. At Mount Abu, there was the Club, there again I was allowed to look around. This was fascinating... a time-warp... everything as it had been, from library, card tables, 1920's typewriter, furnishings, etc. The Hill Sations had many of the old public buildings still standing, the churches and cemeteries being very moving. In many places the ambiance was enchanting... a 'little Surrey'... country lanes, cricket grounds, and viewpoints over the plains below. At Ootacamund, I was able to make a visit to my mother's Victorian-built school, to see the dormitories she slept in and the corridors she walked through. However, with the recent rise of the Indian middle class, I understand the Hill stations have been spoiled by modern hotels and other insensitive commercial developments... alas!
Last edited by NigG; 7th Jul 2016 at 12:49.
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NigG (#222),
Your Grandfather certainly bore a charmed life at Mons in WWI (he was one of the "Old Contemptibles" - the Kaiser had referred to our 1914 Expeditionary Force as " a contemptible little Army"). But what a harrowing story !
Kipling wrote bitterly about our unpreparedness for that war in "Natural Theology":
Ring any bells today ?
Now I thought I knew a fair bit about Indian geography, but "Mount Abu" had me stumped. Went to dear old Google; a look and all was made plain. Not very high, 2600 ft, it looks a lovely place, up on the North of the old Deccan Plain, that old cooled lake of prehistoric volcanic lava akin to the Canadian Shield - but now I'm trespassing on the territory of our Yamagata Ken! Buoyed up by success with Mount Abu, I went in search of another Hill Station which I had always thought to be a figment of Kipling's imagination. "The Ballad of Boh Da Thone" has a couplet (and the rest's worth a read, too):
Now I know of a "Mussoorie", but could never find a "Simoorie". Now we have a good candidate in the shape of "Sirmoor", seems to be in the foothills of the Himalayas, not far North West of Dehra Dun and would have much the same (pleasant) climate.
Let us be the judge of that ! The devil may be in tne detail - but the charms of a story lie there, too. How did you come to be wandering round the subcontinent in the first place ?
They tried to recreate ideal Surreys in a foreign land, with mock-Tudor mansions, Malls, gardens, churches, Public Schools (many religious in ethos), Convent Schools and English names to the roads, to give an allusion to a home five thousand miles away which they would not see for years (or ever).
Enough already !
Danny.
Your Grandfather certainly bore a charmed life at Mons in WWI (he was one of the "Old Contemptibles" - the Kaiser had referred to our 1914 Expeditionary Force as " a contemptible little Army"). But what a harrowing story !
...I got a bullet through my haversack – for seven hours we were bombarded continually – a fine baptism of fire indeed. Every time any of us showed our heads a shell screamed over at us – we were in line [of sight of their guns]. One shell burst on the ground 18 inches behind the trench – we thought of all our friends at home – all of those we loved – of our past lives – death seemed near – it was our Baptism...
"Progressive"
"Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy. . . .
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat,
Why is the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson
Because my God has afflicted me".
"Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy. . . .
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat,
Why is the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson
Because my God has afflicted me".
Now I thought I knew a fair bit about Indian geography, but "Mount Abu" had me stumped. Went to dear old Google; a look and all was made plain. Not very high, 2600 ft, it looks a lovely place, up on the North of the old Deccan Plain, that old cooled lake of prehistoric volcanic lava akin to the Canadian Shield - but now I'm trespassing on the territory of our Yamagata Ken! Buoyed up by success with Mount Abu, I went in search of another Hill Station which I had always thought to be a figment of Kipling's imagination. "The Ballad of Boh Da Thone" has a couplet (and the rest's worth a read, too):
"But the Captain had quitted the long-drawn strife
And in far Simoorie had taken a wife"
And in far Simoorie had taken a wife"
Now I know of a "Mussoorie", but could never find a "Simoorie". Now we have a good candidate in the shape of "Sirmoor", seems to be in the foothills of the Himalayas, not far North West of Dehra Dun and would have much the same (pleasant) climate.
...Regarding my visits to the British Indian Hill Stations, my various mini-adventures aren't really up to being described here... an expedition into the hills here, a dose of malaria there, etc...
...But I recall the enchanting British bungalows, with traditional, Mediterranean-style tiled roofs, verandas and servants' outhouses...
Enough already !
Danny.
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"Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy. . . .
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat,
Why is the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson
Because my God has afflicted me".
Ring any bells today ?
.."Mount Abu" had me stumped..... I know of a "Mussoorie", but could never find a "Simoorie". Now we have a good candidate in the shape of "Sirmoor"
How did you come to be wandering round the subcontinent in the first place ?
They tried to recreate ideal Surreys in a foreign land, with mock-Tudor mansions, Malls, gardens, churches, Public Schools (many religious in ethos), Convent Schools and English names to the roads, to give an allusion to a home five thousand miles away which they would not see for years (or ever)
Quite so... I had forgotten the British names of houses and roads. I did find the Hill Stations very moving, not least because I, as an initially unhappy traveler, had longed to find a small corner of India that had some semblance of home.
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Land of Hope and Glory.
NigG (#224),
Intended only for crowd and riot control in places like Belfast, no armour, so unsuitable as a battle weapon in the Gulf War. The point here is the causal connection between the parsimony of peacetime Government and the resulting extra casualties in war.
Kipling drives the same message home in the final stanzas:
Chorus
"We had a kettle: we let it leak:
Our not repairing it made it worse.
We haven't had any tea for a week. . .
The bottom is out of the Universe!"
Conclusion
"This was none of the good Lord's pleasure,
For the Spirit He breathed in Man is free;
But what comes after is measure for measure,
And not a God that afflicteth thee.
As was the sowing so the reaping
Is now and evermore shall be.
Thou art delivered to thine own keeping.
Only Thyself hath afflicted thee!"
In plain words: "it's probably your own (Government's) fault, that your son died".
At the height of our powers, we only directly ruled some 60% of the population of the subcontinent. The other 40% were indirectly ruled the through their own Rajahs and Maharajahs. These Princely States numbered no less than 550+ at the end.
In the days of the Raj, all the Hill Stations (and everything else, for that matter) were 'British', there was no distinction between the directly and indirectly ruled States. We went where we wanted and did what we liked (within [our] law) from the Himalayas to Cape Cormorin.
All our coins bore the superscription "IND IMP"; the Crown ruled India (through the Viceroy, who was God for all practical purposes out there) absolutely.
A lot more juicy tit-bits to be found, but enough for now.
Danny.
...holding him to account for the loss of her soldier son, who died in a 'Snatch Landrover'...
Kipling drives the same message home in the final stanzas:
Chorus
"We had a kettle: we let it leak:
Our not repairing it made it worse.
We haven't had any tea for a week. . .
The bottom is out of the Universe!"
Conclusion
"This was none of the good Lord's pleasure,
For the Spirit He breathed in Man is free;
But what comes after is measure for measure,
And not a God that afflicteth thee.
As was the sowing so the reaping
Is now and evermore shall be.
Thou art delivered to thine own keeping.
Only Thyself hath afflicted thee!"
In plain words: "it's probably your own (Government's) fault, that your son died".
...the Princely States that were left in the administration of the local ruler...
.... So it was never truly a 'British Hill Station', though Brits went there to stay, and it had all the features of a colonial Hill Station...
All our coins bore the superscription "IND IMP"; the Crown ruled India (through the Viceroy, who was God for all practical purposes out there) absolutely.
A lot more juicy tit-bits to be found, but enough for now.
Danny.
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Intended only for crowd and riot control in places like Belfast, no armour, so unsuitable as a battle weapon in the Gulf War. The point here is the causal connection between the parsimony of peacetime Government and the resulting extra casualties in war.
Kipling drives the same message home in the final stanzas.....
.....In plain words: "it's probably your own (Government's) fault, that your son died".
Kipling drives the same message home in the final stanzas.....
.....In plain words: "it's probably your own (Government's) fault, that your son died".
Point two: Do you recognise this aircraft?
It's a Vildebeest, with which 36 and 100 Squadrons were equipped in 1942. The aircraft were obsolescent, but were part of the Singapore defence force. The Japanese landed at Endau, on the coast of Malaya, opposite Singapore. Both squadrons were sent into action. They had no genuine chance to inflict damage on the Japanese invasion fleet, because they were shot out of the sky by Japanese fighters. Squadrons equipped with the Fairey 'Battle' had a similar fate over France in 1940 (you made the point earlier in this Thread).
My point is, military personnel have been thrown into battle when ill-equipped, for centuries. It's part of the deal when you've taken the Queen's Shilling... you have to get on with the job, no matter what. Did the relatives of the excellent young men who died during this action at Endau get airtime on British newsreels to complain about the 'terrorist' Winston Churchill who failed to provide adequate aircraft to give the airmen a fighting-chance? No. Because it was a different age... one where it was understood that sacrifices would be made and the only appropriate response was a stiff upper lip. I suggest that the British of this time were made of sterner stuff than some of the British of today. These particular Brits are an exception to the rule, of course. The majority of families who have recently had to bear the awful trauma of a military death seem to have done so with quiet pride and forbearance. In my opinion they are true Brits in the traditional mould. I would prefer it if the media gave these people airtime, in preference to those who want to yell abuse at politicans. (...Fat chance!)
Interesting comments from you on the Princely States. Maybe Mt Abu was British-built. I think the local ruler may have had a British administration, who decamped to Mt Abu during the hot season.
Last edited by NigG; 11th Jul 2016 at 16:39.
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NigG (#226),
That's what Forums (Fora ?) are for. Keep the pot boiling !
Our Great White Hope was the Navy. "Repulse" and "Prince of Wales", commanded by an Admiral Phillips, who had declared: "A properly handled capital ship can always beat off air attack" (and to be fair, that reflected Admiralty belief at the time), would destroy the invasion transports. As we know, it didn't work out that way ! The fate of Singapore, Malaya, Burma (and maybe India ?) was sealed.
Our generation "lived in different times". Brought up in the Great Depression and the "hungry thirties", we'd all learned, from the adults, a detailed knowledge of the world war which had ended little more than a decade before. Most of our fathers, uncles and workmates had served in that war; as a small boy I'd seen crippled ex-servicemen begging in the streets of Liverpool, or eking out a pitiful living as buskers or pavement artists (some of these were good - but you can't do much with coloured chalks when it's raining).
Our Mothers and Aunts (a fair number of them "maiden" - not from choice), had endured all the privations, rationing and heartbreaks of War. When we saw WWII coming, we knew what to expect ! The "Stiff upper lip" was the only option.
Things are so different today. WWII is slipping out of living memory. But, as far as the RAF postwar "new" entries I had experience of (up to 1972), I have said: "The "Right Stuff" was still as "Right" as ever it was - just different, that's all".
Certainly he would have had a "Political Agent", an éminence grise (from the ICS) who pulled the strings of Raj policy. If he didn't "toe the line", he was removed (not always by means that would be approved today), and another, more compliant member of his clan was appointed to succeed him. If he "played ball", he would be backed-up by all the "Pomp and Circumstance" of Empire. Mostly, they saw which side their bread was buttered on.
Danny.
...I sense a debate coming on, Danny!...
...The Japanese landed at Endau, on the coast of Malaya, opposite Singapore. Both squadrons were sent into action. They had no genuine chance to inflict damage on the Japanese invasion fleet, because they were shot out of the sky by Japanese fighters...
...Because it was a different age... one where it was understood that sacrifices would be made and the only appropriate response was a stiff upper lip. I suggest that the British of this time were made of sterner stuff than some of the British of today...
Our Mothers and Aunts (a fair number of them "maiden" - not from choice), had endured all the privations, rationing and heartbreaks of War. When we saw WWII coming, we knew what to expect ! The "Stiff upper lip" was the only option.
Things are so different today. WWII is slipping out of living memory. But, as far as the RAF postwar "new" entries I had experience of (up to 1972), I have said: "The "Right Stuff" was still as "Right" as ever it was - just different, that's all".
... I think the local ruler may have had a British administration, who decamped to Mt Abu during the hot season. ..
Danny.
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May a mere colonial pipe up here?
Similar to your above-mentioned debacle in sending Vildebeests (an aircraft as ugly as its African namesake, IMHO) up against Zeros, our flyers were condemned to a similar fate.
I won't mention our Air Force losses in the Singapore rout (as well as nearly all of our Army's 8th Division) but the pathetic and futile sacrifice of our good fighting men generally, at that time, made a lot of people angry.
It was bloody obvious that we weren't going to stop the Japs, nor even slow them down.
In the farcical 'defence' of Rabaul, Wirraways (a close relative of the Harvard with two forward-firing .303s and a single in the rear) were repeatedly sent up against Japanese Zeros.
I hasten to add though, not the same ones - because they generally didn't come back.
Finally, I think it was seven Wirraways were sent up against 100 Japanese attackers.
After 'scramble' and as they were climbing out, a radio message was received by the 'tower' ... "We, who are about to die, salute you."
That was the last that was heard of them.
The question I ask is just what was the mentality behind that wanton waste of, not only life, but the few good pilots we had left?
I've not had a satisfactory answer yet.
I'm reminded of Captain Smith of the Titanic rushing on to the bridge and asking .. "My God, lads, where were you looking?"
People in 1942 were asking similar questions about certain military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel'.
.
Similar to your above-mentioned debacle in sending Vildebeests (an aircraft as ugly as its African namesake, IMHO) up against Zeros, our flyers were condemned to a similar fate.
I won't mention our Air Force losses in the Singapore rout (as well as nearly all of our Army's 8th Division) but the pathetic and futile sacrifice of our good fighting men generally, at that time, made a lot of people angry.
It was bloody obvious that we weren't going to stop the Japs, nor even slow them down.
In the farcical 'defence' of Rabaul, Wirraways (a close relative of the Harvard with two forward-firing .303s and a single in the rear) were repeatedly sent up against Japanese Zeros.
I hasten to add though, not the same ones - because they generally didn't come back.
Finally, I think it was seven Wirraways were sent up against 100 Japanese attackers.
After 'scramble' and as they were climbing out, a radio message was received by the 'tower' ... "We, who are about to die, salute you."
That was the last that was heard of them.
The question I ask is just what was the mentality behind that wanton waste of, not only life, but the few good pilots we had left?
I've not had a satisfactory answer yet.
I'm reminded of Captain Smith of the Titanic rushing on to the bridge and asking .. "My God, lads, where were you looking?"
People in 1942 were asking similar questions about certain military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel'.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 9th Jul 2016 at 00:54.
For the purposes of historical accuracy, Stan 
Gladiator's salute from Rabaul's air commander
With Rabaul, the main town on New Britain, facing imminent invasion by a Japanese fleet of more than 30 ships, Wing Commander John Lerew received a message from the Area Combined Headquarters at Townsville at 4.30 pm on this day, directing him to attack the approaching naval force. The previous day, Lerew had seen his No 24 Squadron all but annihilated in action against over 100 Japanese aircraft, his eight Wirraways being reduced to just two. Protesting the futility of delaying evacuation, he received a curt message from the Air Officer Commanding North-Eastern Area, Air Commodore Frank Lukis, to keep the airfield open. He replied with a message in imperfect Latin recalling the salutation of Roman gladiators: ‘We who are about to die, salute you!’ Ignoring a further message intended to remove him from command, and after consulting the Army commander, Lerew next day led his men away from Rabaul.
"Morituri vos salutamus"
Lerew survived the war and went on to become a senior manager at ICAO
Gladiator's salute from Rabaul's air commander
With Rabaul, the main town on New Britain, facing imminent invasion by a Japanese fleet of more than 30 ships, Wing Commander John Lerew received a message from the Area Combined Headquarters at Townsville at 4.30 pm on this day, directing him to attack the approaching naval force. The previous day, Lerew had seen his No 24 Squadron all but annihilated in action against over 100 Japanese aircraft, his eight Wirraways being reduced to just two. Protesting the futility of delaying evacuation, he received a curt message from the Air Officer Commanding North-Eastern Area, Air Commodore Frank Lukis, to keep the airfield open. He replied with a message in imperfect Latin recalling the salutation of Roman gladiators: ‘We who are about to die, salute you!’ Ignoring a further message intended to remove him from command, and after consulting the Army commander, Lerew next day led his men away from Rabaul.
Lerew survived the war and went on to become a senior manager at ICAO
Lerew and a Vengeance
Just looked up this remarkable gentleman on the usual wiki and discovered the following little snippet that Danny might wish to comment on in that other Prince of Threads.
In September 1943, he investigated the crash of a Vultee Vengeance flown by an experienced aviator, and found that when rolling the aircraft to the right it was possible for the pilot's movements to release his safety harness, making it impossible for him to remain in his seat and control the aircraft. Lerew designed and developed a clip to prevent a recurrence of this mishap, which was later adopted worldwide for all such harnesses.
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Danny
Seems you're right about the Hill Station of Mount Abu. To quote from Wiki: 'Later it was leased by the British government from the then Maharaja of Sirohi for use as the headquarters of the resident to Rajputana (another name for Rajasthan)'. So it was a pukka British Hill Station, but the location was leased.
You make the point, very succinctly, about the wartime British being different from those of today. Having endured tough times during WW1 and its aftermath, they were bound to be. But I'm heartened to note that you think the quality of personnel in the modern RAF is every bit as fine as it was during the war... albeit 'different' in some respects. Arthur left the RAF in '71, similar to you. He thought that some aspects of the modern RAF is different from that of his time. I think there was a greater observance of hierarchy in his day; during the war, marriage was actively discouraged; it was a male preserve until 1939, after which women were given auxiliary roles to that of the men; it may also have been bit more 'laddish' (work hard/play hard), and discipline of the 'bull****' variety was more prominent. On top of that, you could find yourself serving in a great many more overseas territories.
On the other hand, I guess the modern RAF is far more technologically advanced, and is more professional and efficient as a result. (I think we discussed this before.) Also, women now play a full part in the Service. Arthur had rather traditional views on the latter: seeing women as being good in certain roles, such as clerical work. Times change... and sometimes for the better.
Seems you're right about the Hill Station of Mount Abu. To quote from Wiki: 'Later it was leased by the British government from the then Maharaja of Sirohi for use as the headquarters of the resident to Rajputana (another name for Rajasthan)'. So it was a pukka British Hill Station, but the location was leased.
You make the point, very succinctly, about the wartime British being different from those of today. Having endured tough times during WW1 and its aftermath, they were bound to be. But I'm heartened to note that you think the quality of personnel in the modern RAF is every bit as fine as it was during the war... albeit 'different' in some respects. Arthur left the RAF in '71, similar to you. He thought that some aspects of the modern RAF is different from that of his time. I think there was a greater observance of hierarchy in his day; during the war, marriage was actively discouraged; it was a male preserve until 1939, after which women were given auxiliary roles to that of the men; it may also have been bit more 'laddish' (work hard/play hard), and discipline of the 'bull****' variety was more prominent. On top of that, you could find yourself serving in a great many more overseas territories.
On the other hand, I guess the modern RAF is far more technologically advanced, and is more professional and efficient as a result. (I think we discussed this before.) Also, women now play a full part in the Service. Arthur had rather traditional views on the latter: seeing women as being good in certain roles, such as clerical work. Times change... and sometimes for the better.
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Ha! Modesty and irony in equal measure... brothers and sisters, all!
With hindsight, what you say makes sense... a waste of life in a hopeless cause. On the other hand, it wasn't in the British tradition to hoist the white flag without first putting up some sort of fight. It was a similar deal in WW1. To some British troops on the Western Front, it seemed pointless to keep up the pressure on the Germans over the miserable wintertime. By contrast, the French seemed to have a tacit agreement with their enemies in the trenches opposite, to go easy... lob a token shell or two, but not more. The British attitude was always to display 'fighting spirit'. And that attitude had a long history... personal honour was staked upon ones readiness to fight. A Captain in Nelson's Navy who, having spotted an enemy ship, failed to close with it, would likely be court-marshaled.
Quite so, it was a national disgrace, for Britain, Holland and the USA that they were so readily turfed-out of Southeast Asia. But, at least it was a fighting withdrawal, with many brave men losing their lives... not just a raising of white flags.
... the pathetic and futile sacrifice of our good fighting men generally, at that time, made a lot of people angry. It was bloody obvious that we weren't going to stop the Japs, nor even slow them down...
...The question I ask is just what was the mentality behind that wanton waste of, not only life, but the few good pilots we had left?
...The question I ask is just what was the mentality behind that wanton waste of, not only life, but the few good pilots we had left?
People in 1942 were asking similar questions about certain military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel'.
Last edited by NigG; 9th Jul 2016 at 12:22.
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Stanwell (#228),
It would seem that I've "put the cat among the pigeons" in no mean manner. Let's sit back and enjoy...
No, Sir, you may not. You have not been "mere colonials" for a century and more, but fully independent, with only a token, sentimental link to the Crown. You and I know that yours was just a figure of speech, but there are other readers (notably our friends "over the pond"), who may take it at face value. Having said that, I must ruefully admit that I myself have used the term "Wild Colonial Boys" (in a friendly sense) more than once ! - and many Americans think of you (if they think of you at all) as a bunch of "Crocodile Dundees". Note the "Dundee" - the Highland Clearances still cast a long shadow ! (And the Penal days had a hand in it, too).
With the advantage of hindsight, we must all agree that the general drift of your argument is is correct. But the fact was that Pearl Harbor came as a complete shock to everyone, not just the US. At a stroke, all the large European colonies in the Far East (British, American [Phillippines ?], French and Dutch) were in "clear and present danger". What defences they had had been pared to the bone to reinforce the European war; they were in no position to resist the onslaught which followed immediately after the "day which will live in infamy".
Of course the Forces there had to "go down fighting". Where else had they to go ? Where was the shipping to evacuate them all to South Africa or Australia ? (a few lucky ones made it to India, but that was by no means a guaranteed "safe haven" then). If they waved the white flag, they could imagine (from the Chinese experience) what awaited them (and they would not have been disappointed).
We drew false comforts: the Japanese were not innovators, merely copyists, their fighter aircraft were flimsy little things which would drop to pieces if hit, their pilots were short-sighted and couldn't fly anyway, Pearl Harbor succeeded only because it had been just a treacherous, unprovoked attack on a nation with which they were at peace.
We had a rude awakening.
Danny.
It would seem that I've "put the cat among the pigeons" in no mean manner. Let's sit back and enjoy...
...May a mere colonial pipe up here?...
With the advantage of hindsight, we must all agree that the general drift of your argument is is correct. But the fact was that Pearl Harbor came as a complete shock to everyone, not just the US. At a stroke, all the large European colonies in the Far East (British, American [Phillippines ?], French and Dutch) were in "clear and present danger". What defences they had had been pared to the bone to reinforce the European war; they were in no position to resist the onslaught which followed immediately after the "day which will live in infamy".
Of course the Forces there had to "go down fighting". Where else had they to go ? Where was the shipping to evacuate them all to South Africa or Australia ? (a few lucky ones made it to India, but that was by no means a guaranteed "safe haven" then). If they waved the white flag, they could imagine (from the Chinese experience) what awaited them (and they would not have been disappointed).
We drew false comforts: the Japanese were not innovators, merely copyists, their fighter aircraft were flimsy little things which would drop to pieces if hit, their pilots were short-sighted and couldn't fly anyway, Pearl Harbor succeeded only because it had been just a treacherous, unprovoked attack on a nation with which they were at peace.
We had a rude awakening.
Danny.
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CoodaShooda (#229),
.
Not so ! In its original form, it was "te salutamus ", because the gladiators were addressing a single person (the Emperor). Now Lerew was (presumably) speaking to the whole Air Staff, so he used the accusative plural: "vos". (He would certainly have known the difference).
Recalls an amusing (true) story from 1950. The Pope had declared it to be a Holy Year, during which every Catholic priest was obliged to visit Rome at least once. The BEA marketing men saw an opportunity to get ahead of the game. They circularised every Catholic priest in the UK (in Latin), extolling the virtues of BEA. Nearly all replied (also in Latin), with various queries about prices, baggage allowances, timings, possible discounts etc.
BEA was floored, and had to hurriedly recruit a staff of (very expensive) Latinists to answer all the questions. As RyanAir had not been invented (AFAIK), I suppose they may have drummed up some extra traffic.
Well done, Sir ! (spoken by one who himself has been threatened with Court Martial for not obeying orders).
Danny.
...He replied with a message in imperfect Latin..
Not so ! In its original form, it was "te salutamus ", because the gladiators were addressing a single person (the Emperor). Now Lerew was (presumably) speaking to the whole Air Staff, so he used the accusative plural: "vos". (He would certainly have known the difference).
Recalls an amusing (true) story from 1950. The Pope had declared it to be a Holy Year, during which every Catholic priest was obliged to visit Rome at least once. The BEA marketing men saw an opportunity to get ahead of the game. They circularised every Catholic priest in the UK (in Latin), extolling the virtues of BEA. Nearly all replied (also in Latin), with various queries about prices, baggage allowances, timings, possible discounts etc.
BEA was floored, and had to hurriedly recruit a staff of (very expensive) Latinists to answer all the questions. As RyanAir had not been invented (AFAIK), I suppose they may have drummed up some extra traffic.
...Ignoring a further message intended to remove him from command, and after consulting the Army commander, Lerew next day led his men away from Rabaul...
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 10th Jul 2016 at 11:34. Reason: Typos.
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eko4me (#230),
Danny will flag it up on the (one and only) undoubted Prince ! (but, as he himself is witness, I'm sure that many others from there are keeping a keen eye on the proceedings here).
.
I can only comment on the basis of some 400 hours on them (all Mks I to III - A-31s). Neve flew a Mk.IV - A-35s), they were only used as target tugs.
This puzzles me. Never heard it before. The VV would do a very nice loop (you had to really wind it up to begin with) and a nice barrel roll to the left (never tried one to the right, but don't foresee any difficulty). So our chap must be talking about Slow Rolls. About these I've said somewhere: "It would need a brave man, with 10,000 ft of clear air below him, even to try (never tried, and never heard of anyone else trying either). For, when you got it on its left ear, it would immediately revert to default mode (brick) whatever you did. This suited us fine, as we always winged-over to the left into the dive. Never tried to wing-over right.
All this is bye-the-bye. What "safety harness" is he talking about ? "Seat Harness". I suppose. All I can remember is that I had a four-point American harness with a centre box (same as a parachute); I seem to recall that the release was a thing like a clock hand, which you tweaked clockwise to open. If the harness was good and tight, no way could he be thrown out in a right turn (and who would want to do a right roll ?) And what was this "clip" ? New one on me. Could he possibly be using a Sutton Harness (never saw a VV with one).
There were all sorts of myths surrounding the type. The OTU at Peshawar taught that you should never dive without a chap in the back - it would move the CoG too far forward to allow pull-out from vertical. All I can say is that I did 100+ practice dives in training on the Squadron, but this was in the early days when you always had a chap in the back to wobble-pump if needed. On 'ops', you would always have a "gunner" (who might be a nav who'd never fired a shot in his life). Apart from that, I did one "demo" dive, with a chap in the back, but the twin rear 0.303s (400 lbs including mountings, ammo tanks and ammo). had been taken out. Dived as normal, no trouble at all.
Danny.
...the following little snippet that Danny might wish to comment on in that other Prince of Threads...
...Quote:
In September 1943, he investigated the crash of a Vultee Vengeance flown by an experienced aviator, and found that when rolling the aircraft to the right it was possible for the pilot's movements to release his safety harness, making it impossible for him to remain in his seat and control the aircraft. Lerew designed and developed a clip to prevent a recurrence of this mishap, which was later adopted worldwide for all such harnesses..
In September 1943, he investigated the crash of a Vultee Vengeance flown by an experienced aviator, and found that when rolling the aircraft to the right it was possible for the pilot's movements to release his safety harness, making it impossible for him to remain in his seat and control the aircraft. Lerew designed and developed a clip to prevent a recurrence of this mishap, which was later adopted worldwide for all such harnesses..
I can only comment on the basis of some 400 hours on them (all Mks I to III - A-31s). Neve flew a Mk.IV - A-35s), they were only used as target tugs.
This puzzles me. Never heard it before. The VV would do a very nice loop (you had to really wind it up to begin with) and a nice barrel roll to the left (never tried one to the right, but don't foresee any difficulty). So our chap must be talking about Slow Rolls. About these I've said somewhere: "It would need a brave man, with 10,000 ft of clear air below him, even to try (never tried, and never heard of anyone else trying either). For, when you got it on its left ear, it would immediately revert to default mode (brick) whatever you did. This suited us fine, as we always winged-over to the left into the dive. Never tried to wing-over right.
All this is bye-the-bye. What "safety harness" is he talking about ? "Seat Harness". I suppose. All I can remember is that I had a four-point American harness with a centre box (same as a parachute); I seem to recall that the release was a thing like a clock hand, which you tweaked clockwise to open. If the harness was good and tight, no way could he be thrown out in a right turn (and who would want to do a right roll ?) And what was this "clip" ? New one on me. Could he possibly be using a Sutton Harness (never saw a VV with one).
There were all sorts of myths surrounding the type. The OTU at Peshawar taught that you should never dive without a chap in the back - it would move the CoG too far forward to allow pull-out from vertical. All I can say is that I did 100+ practice dives in training on the Squadron, but this was in the early days when you always had a chap in the back to wobble-pump if needed. On 'ops', you would always have a "gunner" (who might be a nav who'd never fired a shot in his life). Apart from that, I did one "demo" dive, with a chap in the back, but the twin rear 0.303s (400 lbs including mountings, ammo tanks and ammo). had been taken out. Dived as normal, no trouble at all.
Danny.
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NigG (#232),
Leased ? Of course ! This was post-Independence. We were the Owners no more !
Matter of opinion!
Danny.
..So it was a pukka British Hill Station, but the location was leased...
...Also, women now play a full part in the Service. Arthur had rather traditional views on the latter: seeing women as being good in certain roles, such as clerical work. Times change... and sometimes for the better...
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 10th Jul 2016 at 17:38. Reason: Found better word
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Danny,
Our knowledgeable contributor, megan, kindly sent me a copy of Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown's impressions of the Vultee Vengeance.
It's actually an extract from his book, "Wings of the Weird and Wonderful".
Unfortunately, I don't have it to hand at the moment but I gained the impression that he'd only test-flown the Mk.IV.
Mind you, it pales into insignificance compared with what you've previously so beautifully described on the 'Brevet' thread.
Nonetheless, it's quite interesting and I wonder if I could prevail upon megan to post it on this thread.
What think you?
Our knowledgeable contributor, megan, kindly sent me a copy of Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown's impressions of the Vultee Vengeance.
It's actually an extract from his book, "Wings of the Weird and Wonderful".
Unfortunately, I don't have it to hand at the moment but I gained the impression that he'd only test-flown the Mk.IV.
Mind you, it pales into insignificance compared with what you've previously so beautifully described on the 'Brevet' thread.
Nonetheless, it's quite interesting and I wonder if I could prevail upon megan to post it on this thread.
What think you?
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Stanwell,
By all means ! But this has come up for discussion a long time ago, He was not very impressed with the VV, regarding it as inferior as a dive bomber to the Stuka. We concluded that he'd got hold of a Mk.IV.
If megan can add anything to that, would be very interested !
Danny.
By all means ! But this has come up for discussion a long time ago, He was not very impressed with the VV, regarding it as inferior as a dive bomber to the Stuka. We concluded that he'd got hold of a Mk.IV.
If megan can add anything to that, would be very interested !
Danny.
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Oh well, look and see.
I'll contact megan and ask if he can convert it to a format which can be posted on here.
Anyway, in his fairly brief summation in that book, Eric Brown doesn't add too much to what we've already gleaned from your excellent posts and other sources.
Nonetheless...
BTW, I forgot that I hadn't thanked Nigel and yourself for your responses to the question of our military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel' in 1942. Ta.
.
I'll contact megan and ask if he can convert it to a format which can be posted on here.
Anyway, in his fairly brief summation in that book, Eric Brown doesn't add too much to what we've already gleaned from your excellent posts and other sources.
Nonetheless...
BTW, I forgot that I hadn't thanked Nigel and yourself for your responses to the question of our military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel' in 1942. Ta.
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Last edited by Stanwell; 9th Jul 2016 at 17:48.