1v1 combat debrief
Thread Starter
1v1 combat debrief
Gentlemen, yes the two who disturbed the tranquility of the lands behind the Malvern Hills at 1615 today.
Apart from disrupting a quiet afternoon in the shed reshaping wood, the combat skills exhibited were woeful.
In a close-contact defensive guns environment get into the vertical before loosing all excess energy, and if you continue to turn don't get so slow that there are few options remaining.
You were too slow.
If there is any doubt that you have forced a fly through never reverse. Consider an early vertical, rolling, scissors manoeuvre as an alternative.
You reversed.
No wonder that you dived into an adjacent 'humbly' CB, and then continued a northerly tail chase around the bubbling clouds.
You will have to repeat the excersise as soon as possible, and consider dissimilar aircraft types for opposition.
With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?
Ahh WIWOL
Apart from disrupting a quiet afternoon in the shed reshaping wood, the combat skills exhibited were woeful.
In a close-contact defensive guns environment get into the vertical before loosing all excess energy, and if you continue to turn don't get so slow that there are few options remaining.
You were too slow.
If there is any doubt that you have forced a fly through never reverse. Consider an early vertical, rolling, scissors manoeuvre as an alternative.
You reversed.
No wonder that you dived into an adjacent 'humbly' CB, and then continued a northerly tail chase around the bubbling clouds.
You will have to repeat the excersise as soon as possible, and consider dissimilar aircraft types for opposition.
With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?
Ahh WIWOL
Last edited by safetypee; 26th Apr 2016 at 19:01.
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Safetypee, thank you. Sat here sipping a Rijoca, I'm chuckling away at how a pair of young sky-gods have been eloquently debriefed.
Good fortune with the wood shaping. It can be devilishly difficult.
Good fortune with the wood shaping. It can be devilishly difficult.
safetypee, are you PPRuNe's full-time, off-grid spoon-whittler, living in the depths of the Forest of Dean or some such rural backwoods idyll?
I guess you witnessed a typical energy-bleeding 'base height brawl' with few options left to the contestants except patience...and fuel?
I guess you witnessed a typical energy-bleeding 'base height brawl' with few options left to the contestants except patience...and fuel?
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Apr 2016 at 07:19.
Courtney Mil wrote:
Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...
A pity we didn't have regular access in the UK as it would soon have sorted out the truth. I remember the snort of derision in the DDS cabin at Deci' from one Fg Off Nav at the ridiculous Fox2 claim made by one 'T*ny-the-p**f', who then tried to give him a hard time. But Jerry stood his ground and the DDS data proved him correct after something of a 'robust discussion'. "You guys run a pretty tough debrief", commented the Spams against whom we'd been doing our DACT.
Which is probably true, given the sickening "Gee, you guys were awesome" stuff we used to hear during 'CFM' debriefs at Incirlik.
Uninstrumented, ground-observed debrief.
A pity we didn't have regular access in the UK as it would soon have sorted out the truth. I remember the snort of derision in the DDS cabin at Deci' from one Fg Off Nav at the ridiculous Fox2 claim made by one 'T*ny-the-p**f', who then tried to give him a hard time. But Jerry stood his ground and the DDS data proved him correct after something of a 'robust discussion'. "You guys run a pretty tough debrief", commented the Spams against whom we'd been doing our DACT.
Which is probably true, given the sickening "Gee, you guys were awesome" stuff we used to hear during 'CFM' debriefs at Incirlik.
Safetypee wrote
Possibly F-15s out of RAF Lakenheath? You might also have seen F-22 Raptors as they are currently deployed at RAF Lakenheath.
The F-22s went through the Mach Loop on the 26th April.
With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?
The F-22s went through the Mach Loop on the 26th April.
Originally Posted by BEgs
Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...
At Tyndall we had our own ACMI and not long after that we introduced RAIDS to the RAF. Not only did all that improve the quality of the debriefing, it also made people a hell of a lot better at reconstructing fights and running proper debriefs.
Thread Starter
I never experienced ACMI, but I suspect that more often it was uses to determine what happened (as did many verbal debriefs), and thus missed the opportunity to understand the 'how and why' which contributes to real learning.
Too often theory dominated teaching, at the expense of application.
Theory (pre flight briefing) can be covered with an egg and a doughnut - hole in the middle. The surface of the egg depicts the range of flight paths for an aircraft with excess energy - use the vertical; the doughnut, an aircraft with less capability the need to turn and roll. The close range, guns zone for dissimilar combat is given by the combined volumes of the egg and doughnut; a winning position is achieved by attaining a suitable point of intersection.
The skills involve judgement of the opposing capability, and where, when, and how to manoeuvre on your 'surface'.
Skills of application can be developed with simple flight practice: starting from loose line abreast the trainee barrel rolls around the target; repeat for turning flight, and then again with the target looping and barrel rolling.
Counter manoeuvres involve the target flying the profiles and the trainee responding with a similar manoeuvre.
Perhaps the ACMI systems are more a battle management tool, opposed to 'mixing it' close in. The more that computers are used to depict what happen, then the less focus on the close range stuff and the how ... We rarely fight the war that we plan (train) for.
As my Sgt Pilot instructor noted after an aerobatic sequence flight, "we don't teach all of the students that because we might be fighting them one day"; ergo there was portions of level flight between manoeuvres.
Too often theory dominated teaching, at the expense of application.
Theory (pre flight briefing) can be covered with an egg and a doughnut - hole in the middle. The surface of the egg depicts the range of flight paths for an aircraft with excess energy - use the vertical; the doughnut, an aircraft with less capability the need to turn and roll. The close range, guns zone for dissimilar combat is given by the combined volumes of the egg and doughnut; a winning position is achieved by attaining a suitable point of intersection.
The skills involve judgement of the opposing capability, and where, when, and how to manoeuvre on your 'surface'.
Skills of application can be developed with simple flight practice: starting from loose line abreast the trainee barrel rolls around the target; repeat for turning flight, and then again with the target looping and barrel rolling.
Counter manoeuvres involve the target flying the profiles and the trainee responding with a similar manoeuvre.
Perhaps the ACMI systems are more a battle management tool, opposed to 'mixing it' close in. The more that computers are used to depict what happen, then the less focus on the close range stuff and the how ... We rarely fight the war that we plan (train) for.
As my Sgt Pilot instructor noted after an aerobatic sequence flight, "we don't teach all of the students that because we might be fighting them one day"; ergo there was portions of level flight between manoeuvres.
Thread Starter
Thanks TEEJ.
Mig 29, perhaps not, no smoke, but they were very noisy and appeared relatively small.
F15 unlikely as the fins were canted out; and usually the F15s carry external stores.
F22, possible, but with such acclaimed performance how did the fight degenerate to a low speed energy deficient situation
Does showing the bullet path on the HUD help energy management - it's like trying to poke a tiger with a piece of string.
Definite need for a repeat flight in this part of the country; and based on what was witnessed, I would put money on a Typhoon in a mixed environment.
Mig 29, perhaps not, no smoke, but they were very noisy and appeared relatively small.
F15 unlikely as the fins were canted out; and usually the F15s carry external stores.
F22, possible, but with such acclaimed performance how did the fight degenerate to a low speed energy deficient situation
Does showing the bullet path on the HUD help energy management - it's like trying to poke a tiger with a piece of string.
Definite need for a repeat flight in this part of the country; and based on what was witnessed, I would put money on a Typhoon in a mixed environment.
Last edited by safetypee; 27th Apr 2016 at 15:23.
Safetypee,
I think you've got ACMI all wrong, it is a far more flexible tool than you seem to think. Yes, as it's used at, say, Red Flag style excercises, it is very good at showing how teams were "managed", SA building and how their targeting worked. However, it is also excellent at the knife fight in a phone booth level, showing manoeuvre, energy management and weapons employment. You can even punch up the cockpit view. The instrumentation is detailed enough to be able to analyse aircraft handling.
Like any tool, it is only as good as the user and it is only one part of the complete debrief. Gunsight and radar video and individual input are still essential elements. Just sitting there and watching the God's eye view or the shot summaries will teach you nothing.
Probably slightly wasted on 1v1 because most ACLs/instructors should be able to do their job without it. That said, it is still a great teaching tool for those learning BFM and those learning to teach it.
I think you've got ACMI all wrong, it is a far more flexible tool than you seem to think. Yes, as it's used at, say, Red Flag style excercises, it is very good at showing how teams were "managed", SA building and how their targeting worked. However, it is also excellent at the knife fight in a phone booth level, showing manoeuvre, energy management and weapons employment. You can even punch up the cockpit view. The instrumentation is detailed enough to be able to analyse aircraft handling.
Like any tool, it is only as good as the user and it is only one part of the complete debrief. Gunsight and radar video and individual input are still essential elements. Just sitting there and watching the God's eye view or the shot summaries will teach you nothing.
Probably slightly wasted on 1v1 because most ACLs/instructors should be able to do their job without it. That said, it is still a great teaching tool for those learning BFM and those learning to teach it.
Does showing the bullet path on the HUD help energy management - it's like trying to poke a tiger with a piece of string.
In any case, the 'hotline' spaghetti display has given way to the 'funnel' in the newer models. It's so effective and intuitive they've quit practicing gunnery on the dart altogether.
There are two things that help energy management.....your left & right hands.
CM,
Totally agree with you. During my Tyndall tour, just prior to yours, ACMI was already available for basic F15 student debriefs, it was a brilliant aid. The RAF only caught up, later on this.
The USAF had a more structured training plan by the mid-80s, using ACMI for basic and multi combat training. However, I did find that my basic recall was better than most USAF IPs, maybe because with ACMI they didn't really need it.
Totally agree with you. During my Tyndall tour, just prior to yours, ACMI was already available for basic F15 student debriefs, it was a brilliant aid. The RAF only caught up, later on this.
The USAF had a more structured training plan by the mid-80s, using ACMI for basic and multi combat training. However, I did find that my basic recall was better than most USAF IPs, maybe because with ACMI they didn't really need it.
Safetypee wrote
You are very welcome.
Nice shot of one of the F-22s in the Mach Loop at following link.
Fox2 :: View topic - F-22 Raptor
From
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48737680@N00/26570680672/
Thanks TEEJ.
Nice shot of one of the F-22s in the Mach Loop at following link.
Fox2 :: View topic - F-22 Raptor
From
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48737680@N00/26570680672/
Nice four-ship at following link. F-22, F-15s and Typhoon. No Squadron markings on Typhoon.
Image too large for PPRuNe rules.
http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/shared/...-ZZ999-001.jpg
From
Raptors and Eagles and Typhoons, oh my!
Image too large for PPRuNe rules.
http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/shared/...-ZZ999-001.jpg
From
Raptors and Eagles and Typhoons, oh my!
On April 26, the Raptors, alongside RAF Typhoons and F-15C and F-15E fighter aircraft from the 48th FW, all trained together in an area of Wales known locally as the "mach loop." Here, the Airmen were able to integrate and practice maneuvers in an austere environment much different from their home station in the "sunshine state."