Jet2 anyone?
Hi Beags! Not sure I agree with " quality QFI-ing " statement lol! But do agree with the rest. Retention must be difficult when the choices are so limited! I actually asked to go to helicopters at my 38/16 point but was denied unless I had a bad back! They wanted me to go spec aircrew on Tornado! Needless to say I went to BA and probably earned more but it was sooooooo boring and hardly anywhere near as satisfying flying SAR helicopters!
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There are 4 ex military at my Jet2 base.
One is happy and will stay until he retires, one has had an interview with BA, and the other two have their BA applications in and are awaiting their interviews.
One is happy and will stay until he retires, one has had an interview with BA, and the other two have their BA applications in and are awaiting their interviews.
Champagne anyone...?
As well as being an ex-Jet2er and current long haul gear monkey for Britain's actual favourite airline 
I'm also still an Auggie sim instructor so sit around the crewroom a couple of times a month listening to the current harsh realities of RAF manning.
I'd heartily agree with Bloodhound Loose that it's going to be a close run thing weathering this particular storm. Things are certainly "interesting" at the ATAAR Superbase with large numbers of people looking outside the RAF. At the same time though some people have recognised that it is potentially an "exciting" time to be in the RAF with new aircraft and capabilities planned for the near future. Sadly for most of everyone else that "excitement" is heavily outweighed by the ever-present embuggerances that the RAF seem to create in all areas of the job.
As someone said to me in the sim recently "the Air Force don't need to give me more money or FRIs or whatever. They just need to make the job less ****."
I'm also still an Auggie sim instructor so sit around the crewroom a couple of times a month listening to the current harsh realities of RAF manning. I'd heartily agree with Bloodhound Loose that it's going to be a close run thing weathering this particular storm. Things are certainly "interesting" at the ATAAR Superbase with large numbers of people looking outside the RAF. At the same time though some people have recognised that it is potentially an "exciting" time to be in the RAF with new aircraft and capabilities planned for the near future. Sadly for most of everyone else that "excitement" is heavily outweighed by the ever-present embuggerances that the RAF seem to create in all areas of the job.
As someone said to me in the sim recently "the Air Force don't need to give me more money or FRIs or whatever. They just need to make the job less ****."
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It's interesting to note a recurring theme here about the perceived level of "excitement/boredom" of airline flying. What percentage of RAF time is spent doing "exciting" stuff? Most of my time was spent doing things much less exciting or interesting than flying an airliner. If you've a burning need for adrenaline, don't apply to Jet2, certainly don't apply to the airline I work for; may I suggest buying a motorbike?
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We might not have been paid as well as airline people-tube drivers, but we were paid pretty reasonably and the job satisfaction was a key factor.
As someone said to me in the sim recently "the Air Force don't need to give me more money or FRIs or whatever. They just need to make the job less ****."
That was my only ability - always remembered a lot more than I acted like I should ;-)
Chania
Co-pilot was on his check ride - turned left out of the bar for more bars when he should have turned right for the hotel and early night - flight plan faff saved him next morning.
Hang on -scratch that - just had a flash from the past - nuff said ;-)
Heraklion beach
Chania
Co-pilot was on his check ride - turned left out of the bar for more bars when he should have turned right for the hotel and early night - flight plan faff saved him next morning.
Hang on -scratch that - just had a flash from the past - nuff said ;-)
Heraklion beach
Having spent eighteen fantastic years in the RAF, leaving in 1978; I left because in was in the interest of my family that I went to civil aviation with a 50% pay rise. I have never looked back.
In civil aviation you are paid to fly. Ok, it is at some Godawful times in the morning but you do stop mid afternoon. You cannot do this forever because of the limitation of crew duty and flying times so as a previous poster pointed out it works out at about 450 hrs. a year. When you are not flying you go home: you are not paid to clutter up the ops or the crew rest room.
You know what you are doing a week ahead. Leave is taken on a daily basis. i.e. You take four working days off after a rest period, the following rest days are ignored, another slot of working days followed by days off. Properly arranged you can have three weeks off and only take 12 out of your 42 days entitlement.
Say bye bye to package holidays. Flying there with airline discount is so cheap that you can upgrade your accommodation to 4* or 5* without any problem.
Dunno why I didn't do it in 1972 when I had the option.
In civil aviation you are paid to fly. Ok, it is at some Godawful times in the morning but you do stop mid afternoon. You cannot do this forever because of the limitation of crew duty and flying times so as a previous poster pointed out it works out at about 450 hrs. a year. When you are not flying you go home: you are not paid to clutter up the ops or the crew rest room.
You know what you are doing a week ahead. Leave is taken on a daily basis. i.e. You take four working days off after a rest period, the following rest days are ignored, another slot of working days followed by days off. Properly arranged you can have three weeks off and only take 12 out of your 42 days entitlement.
Say bye bye to package holidays. Flying there with airline discount is so cheap that you can upgrade your accommodation to 4* or 5* without any problem.
Dunno why I didn't do it in 1972 when I had the option.
ShotOne, I think you misunderstand. There are many service flying activities which are unique to military flying - and are very enjoyable. For example, formation flying, low level navigation, air-to-air refuelling to name but a few.
Whereas trucking a people-tube of chavs at some ungodly hour from Manchester to Argos / Domestos / Asbestos or wherever to drink themselves stupid is hardly 'interesting', let alone fun.
Whereas trucking a people-tube of chavs at some ungodly hour from Manchester to Argos / Domestos / Asbestos or wherever to drink themselves stupid is hardly 'interesting', let alone fun.
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Beagle,I don't dispute your first point; my point is that only a small portion of service is spent doing those things.
While I disagree with your second point, it's not really worth arguing over since those who feel that way will hardly be researching Jet2 conditions of service.
While I disagree with your second point, it's not really worth arguing over since those who feel that way will hardly be researching Jet2 conditions of service.
ShotOne, although it probably isn't the same these days, in the AAR world we often used to say "The only thing you can be sure of is the time you planned to take-off" - because the entire mission could change from the moment you arrived for briefing. So a lot of thinking for yourself and working out how best to meet the mission needs - if weather wasn't suitable on the planned AAR area, you'd have to find another area and coordinate with the area controller. Even in UAS QFI-ing days, I'd think "Ah great - some aeros in the morning, then a couple of stalling trips this afternoon" or whatever.
So the fact that, as a senior 4-jet captain I was paid far less than an airline pilot wasn't an issue - my job was a lot more interesting than yet another 0-dark-00 trip to some holiday resort.
But that was before the RAF's variety of flying reduced, 'capability holidays' became common, contractors and FTRS started infiltrating the training world and front line flying meant more and more time away on detachment.
If Σ (W+£) = const., where W is enjoyment of work and £ is pay, in the RAF 'W' used to be much greater than it is today, I gather, whereas £ hasn't increased to compensate. So if £ is greater in the airlines, people will be more and more likely to accept a lower 'W' factor.
Or, in more crude terms,"When your bucket of fun is smaller than your bucket of $hit, it's time to leave!"
So the fact that, as a senior 4-jet captain I was paid far less than an airline pilot wasn't an issue - my job was a lot more interesting than yet another 0-dark-00 trip to some holiday resort.
But that was before the RAF's variety of flying reduced, 'capability holidays' became common, contractors and FTRS started infiltrating the training world and front line flying meant more and more time away on detachment.
If Σ (W+£) = const., where W is enjoyment of work and £ is pay, in the RAF 'W' used to be much greater than it is today, I gather, whereas £ hasn't increased to compensate. So if £ is greater in the airlines, people will be more and more likely to accept a lower 'W' factor.
Or, in more crude terms,"When your bucket of fun is smaller than your bucket of $hit, it's time to leave!"
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Beagle, once again, displaying levels of ignorance commensurate with someone who hasn't actually operated as aircrew for a UK Charter or Scheduled carrier.
If I may, I'll expand you on a few 'inaccuracies' that you've stated.
1) Jet2 is a not the only airline to carry 'chavs' as you so tolerantly put it. However, they have a Zero Tolerance policy towards 'On-board Unruliness', where the Board have given the full support to Crews who elect to divert & weight of Jet2's Legal assets to prosecute offenders & recover diversion & other costs from perpetrators.
2) Jet2 OWN OUTRIGHT most of their substantial fleet, as opposed to expensive Leasing, negating flights at 'Ungodly' hours. The 1st wave tends to be outbound ex-UK by early/mid-morning returning early/mid afternoon which is when the 2nd wave departs. Both fleets are usually tucked up in bed by 01-0200.
3) Jet2 are a growing company. Share price was 75p when I joined in early 2010, it's currently at 575p. Not a bad achievement really and considering the earnings-to-share ratio indicates that they are undervalued.
4) They are finally getting into the idea of 'Pilot Retention' as the recent T&C's improvements have shown but there's someway to go yet. They've upped the money to £90K+ Basic for a Line Shag Capt. with FDA & Sector Pay on top of that plus 8% put into a Pension. Compare that to 15-20% for TOM, TCX & VAA or 1% at TAG & Jet2 has some work to do there, but they know that. For some of the ex-Channel Express stalwarts here, they're also get 'Share Grants'. Jet2 could increase or re-introduce either of these as weapons in their armoury without re-visiting salary increases, in order to retain or entice pilots. The same can be said of Staff Travel.
5) Job 'Enjoyment' is an individual thing. I'm not ex-Military but my 30-year civilian flying career has taken me around the world a few times, in addition to Polar-to-Polar, paradropping, aerial photography, air taxi, bush & beach flying, short, medium, long & ultra long-haul on 2,3 & 4 engined aircraft of the piston, turbo-prop & jet varieties. I'm still fortunate that I drive to work, sometimes at 4am, with a smile on my face. This is because, I've found that it's not what you're flying or where to. But who you're with. Jet2's strength is it's diversity of crew, young & 'first airline' to older 'sweats & vets' looking for a quieter life & 350-400 hours in 12 months is envied by former colleagues of other airlines. It suits me fine for the moment but I have 20 years left to go.
All in all, if you're Northern UK-based it's a pretty good gig... but don't tell everyone...
If I may, I'll expand you on a few 'inaccuracies' that you've stated.
1) Jet2 is a not the only airline to carry 'chavs' as you so tolerantly put it. However, they have a Zero Tolerance policy towards 'On-board Unruliness', where the Board have given the full support to Crews who elect to divert & weight of Jet2's Legal assets to prosecute offenders & recover diversion & other costs from perpetrators.
2) Jet2 OWN OUTRIGHT most of their substantial fleet, as opposed to expensive Leasing, negating flights at 'Ungodly' hours. The 1st wave tends to be outbound ex-UK by early/mid-morning returning early/mid afternoon which is when the 2nd wave departs. Both fleets are usually tucked up in bed by 01-0200.
3) Jet2 are a growing company. Share price was 75p when I joined in early 2010, it's currently at 575p. Not a bad achievement really and considering the earnings-to-share ratio indicates that they are undervalued.
4) They are finally getting into the idea of 'Pilot Retention' as the recent T&C's improvements have shown but there's someway to go yet. They've upped the money to £90K+ Basic for a Line Shag Capt. with FDA & Sector Pay on top of that plus 8% put into a Pension. Compare that to 15-20% for TOM, TCX & VAA or 1% at TAG & Jet2 has some work to do there, but they know that. For some of the ex-Channel Express stalwarts here, they're also get 'Share Grants'. Jet2 could increase or re-introduce either of these as weapons in their armoury without re-visiting salary increases, in order to retain or entice pilots. The same can be said of Staff Travel.
5) Job 'Enjoyment' is an individual thing. I'm not ex-Military but my 30-year civilian flying career has taken me around the world a few times, in addition to Polar-to-Polar, paradropping, aerial photography, air taxi, bush & beach flying, short, medium, long & ultra long-haul on 2,3 & 4 engined aircraft of the piston, turbo-prop & jet varieties. I'm still fortunate that I drive to work, sometimes at 4am, with a smile on my face. This is because, I've found that it's not what you're flying or where to. But who you're with. Jet2's strength is it's diversity of crew, young & 'first airline' to older 'sweats & vets' looking for a quieter life & 350-400 hours in 12 months is envied by former colleagues of other airlines. It suits me fine for the moment but I have 20 years left to go.
All in all, if you're Northern UK-based it's a pretty good gig... but don't tell everyone...
Last edited by DADDY-OH!; 25th Jan 2016 at 00:11. Reason: additional information
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As this thread appears to have evolved into a Mil v Airline job satisfaction discussion, here's my take on it.
Firstly, while all opinions are valid, perhaps the most valid are from those, like me, who have done both jobs. In my case, 12 years of single seat fast jet plus guest appearances in helicopter and multi cockpits, followed by 26 years to date of airline flying.
The 12 years in the RAF had many awesome and exciting times, I was type rated at one time or another on every single seat jet in the RAF and flew the Harrier on the front line. I would dearly love the opportunity to fly any one of them again, even the Jaguar. In the commercial world I have operated Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus. By dint of right time right place (and quality RAF training) I achieved a quick command (2 years), and progressed quickly to TRE.
I didn't think that airline flying could be as satisfying as military flying, but it is. In airline flying I didn't think that instructing and examining in the sim could be as satisfying as line flying, but it almost is.
For me, the reason why the airline flying turned out to be so satisfying is, quite simply, that every trip is an operational mission. There is a job to be done despite everything that the weather, the rule book, French ATC, etc throws at you. That is the challenge. As with any job, you can make that appear routine and dull, or you can rise to the challenge of getting from A to B, and back to A again. If you can do that, and maintain a schedule, and use as little fuel as possible, and enjoy the company of your flight deck colleague, then there are all the makings of a good day at work. As a slight aside, I couldn't initially see how spending much of my winter working in the sim could be satisfying. Once again though, don't knock it until you've tried it. A 20% pay boost and, if you get it right, the respect of your candidates certainly offsets the downside, and every day I learn new things from the pilots under check.
Military flying isn't for everyone, and neither is commercial flying. The point that BEags has missed though is that we don't fly chavs to holiday resorts, we fly aircraft to airports. That's what all pilots do, and generations of ex-military pilots of all shades have achieved plenty of job satisfaction as airline pilots.
Back to the thread though - do I fancy flying a B737 for Jet2? No, on both counts. Tried 'oop north', didn't like it. And the 737, despite a few flat screen TVs, is a cramped ergonomic slum of a cockpit at the front end of an early 60s aircraft that's way past it's sell by date. I managed to like the Jaguar, but trying to make me like a B737 really would be a stretch.
Bus14
Have Fun, Don't Crash
Firstly, while all opinions are valid, perhaps the most valid are from those, like me, who have done both jobs. In my case, 12 years of single seat fast jet plus guest appearances in helicopter and multi cockpits, followed by 26 years to date of airline flying.
The 12 years in the RAF had many awesome and exciting times, I was type rated at one time or another on every single seat jet in the RAF and flew the Harrier on the front line. I would dearly love the opportunity to fly any one of them again, even the Jaguar. In the commercial world I have operated Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus. By dint of right time right place (and quality RAF training) I achieved a quick command (2 years), and progressed quickly to TRE.
I didn't think that airline flying could be as satisfying as military flying, but it is. In airline flying I didn't think that instructing and examining in the sim could be as satisfying as line flying, but it almost is.
For me, the reason why the airline flying turned out to be so satisfying is, quite simply, that every trip is an operational mission. There is a job to be done despite everything that the weather, the rule book, French ATC, etc throws at you. That is the challenge. As with any job, you can make that appear routine and dull, or you can rise to the challenge of getting from A to B, and back to A again. If you can do that, and maintain a schedule, and use as little fuel as possible, and enjoy the company of your flight deck colleague, then there are all the makings of a good day at work. As a slight aside, I couldn't initially see how spending much of my winter working in the sim could be satisfying. Once again though, don't knock it until you've tried it. A 20% pay boost and, if you get it right, the respect of your candidates certainly offsets the downside, and every day I learn new things from the pilots under check.
Military flying isn't for everyone, and neither is commercial flying. The point that BEags has missed though is that we don't fly chavs to holiday resorts, we fly aircraft to airports. That's what all pilots do, and generations of ex-military pilots of all shades have achieved plenty of job satisfaction as airline pilots.
Back to the thread though - do I fancy flying a B737 for Jet2? No, on both counts. Tried 'oop north', didn't like it. And the 737, despite a few flat screen TVs, is a cramped ergonomic slum of a cockpit at the front end of an early 60s aircraft that's way past it's sell by date. I managed to like the Jaguar, but trying to make me like a B737 really would be a stretch.
Bus14
Have Fun, Don't Crash
Last edited by Bus14; 25th Jan 2016 at 04:12. Reason: Edited to add my signature, It was my 'short' auth brief in the RAF, and remains my operational philosophy.
Beagle:-
What a load of supercilious superior claptrap! The one thing that always irritated me in the RAF was the sort of rhetoric as above, usually expressed by those who thought themselves as superior to their fellow military pilots who weren't FJ, or Strat Fleet, or V-force, or whatever.
The whole point about civil airlines is that they are businesses. The successful ones are those that make money and expand their fleets, ie such as Jet2, Ryanair, Easyjet. The ones that don't often cling on to past glories and grandfather rights to LHR slots (which incidentally are not owned but allocated) and rarely issue shareholder dividends.
I recall in the 70s a fellow squadron captain was in the process of leaving and was overjoyed to have been recruited by BOAC. My congratulations were not enthusiastic enough it seemed, and he asked when I left wouldn't I too treasure such an offer? I remember my reply, "13 years of Government work is quite enough for me, thanks".
About a year later I did leave the RAF. I wrote off to every UK based airline in the Feb Flight International airline directory (and a few overseas ones too). I still have the file of rejection letters thanking me for my interest in their company, regretting that they were not recruiting, but promising to keep my details on file. We marched out of our quarter, moved in to my mother's home, and I signed on the dole. Before I had even received my first Gyro cheque I had a call from someone who had just got a job with Dan-Air on 1-11's at LTN. A mutual friend had been offered the other job but was not free to go for it. He had passed on my contact number and if I was interested to go up to LTN the next day with my Log Book. Thus I started out on a career with Dan-Air (a then solely charter company that mainly flew the bucket and spade brigade (or "chavs" as you so charmingly put it).
I have never regretted the subsequent years with an outfit that had to live on its wits and make its own way in the world without the favoured status of the "flag carriers". As many will have already realised Dan-Air stopped making its way in 1992, after a boardroom coup caused the founder chairman to resign and the company fatally switched operations from mainly charter to mainly two class scheduled. I was one of the few that were on the right fleet (NG 737) at the right base (LGW) to keep their jobs in a BA subsidiary, BAEoG. Everyone else lost theirs, every shareholder lost their entire investment, Lloyds bank (who pulled the plug) didn't.
So ironically I was back into government work or as near as damn it, but on Dan-Air pay minus 10% (though we did at least get that reinstated). The following four years were not the happiest, best illustrated by a reported BA training meeting when profound concern was expressed due to this group of ex charter pilots compromising the very high standards of BA. They were reassured, but scarcely mollified, by being told that following our "harmonisation", we had been assessed on average as being BA above average!
They kicked me out at 55 and not wanting to retire yet I grabbed a job with Air Foyle that was operating the start-up EasyJet operation at LTN prior to it getting its own AOC. When the daily 140 mile grind round the M25 began to pall, I then switched to Virgin Express (ostensibly LGW based, but actually HOTAC'd at BRU for a week at a time). When they switched base to LHR I decided to hang up my headset rather than face further the delights of the M25.
Both of these latter two companies were great fun to work for. Hard work (up to 6 sectors a day), we had to do our own 20 mins turn round at EasyJet, ie fuel and oils, manual loadsheet, etc, while the cabin crew cleaned and prepped the cabin. Co-Pilots and Cabin Crew were usually young and starting out on their careers, keen to learn and improve, and hardworking. No doubt they were looking to move on as soon as their CVs allowed, but as a captain I could rely on them to always do their best.
So why this long self indulgent rambling? Simply to counter the aloof comments in this thread aimed at Jet2 and similar companies. The move to the civvie world is traumatic enough (well I found it so), without making the mistake of joining what is the wrong company for you. If like me you want to enjoy your work rather than simply go for the best pay, then think on. It can be hard work making the move such that the minutiae dominates one's attention rather than the final outcome. It is the latter though that is going to determine your subsequent career and job satisfaction.
I feel that I was lucky. Are you?
... trucking a people-tube of chavs at some ungodly hour from Manchester to Argos / Domestos / Asbestos or wherever to drink themselves stupid is hardly 'interesting', let alone fun.
The whole point about civil airlines is that they are businesses. The successful ones are those that make money and expand their fleets, ie such as Jet2, Ryanair, Easyjet. The ones that don't often cling on to past glories and grandfather rights to LHR slots (which incidentally are not owned but allocated) and rarely issue shareholder dividends.
I recall in the 70s a fellow squadron captain was in the process of leaving and was overjoyed to have been recruited by BOAC. My congratulations were not enthusiastic enough it seemed, and he asked when I left wouldn't I too treasure such an offer? I remember my reply, "13 years of Government work is quite enough for me, thanks".
About a year later I did leave the RAF. I wrote off to every UK based airline in the Feb Flight International airline directory (and a few overseas ones too). I still have the file of rejection letters thanking me for my interest in their company, regretting that they were not recruiting, but promising to keep my details on file. We marched out of our quarter, moved in to my mother's home, and I signed on the dole. Before I had even received my first Gyro cheque I had a call from someone who had just got a job with Dan-Air on 1-11's at LTN. A mutual friend had been offered the other job but was not free to go for it. He had passed on my contact number and if I was interested to go up to LTN the next day with my Log Book. Thus I started out on a career with Dan-Air (a then solely charter company that mainly flew the bucket and spade brigade (or "chavs" as you so charmingly put it).
I have never regretted the subsequent years with an outfit that had to live on its wits and make its own way in the world without the favoured status of the "flag carriers". As many will have already realised Dan-Air stopped making its way in 1992, after a boardroom coup caused the founder chairman to resign and the company fatally switched operations from mainly charter to mainly two class scheduled. I was one of the few that were on the right fleet (NG 737) at the right base (LGW) to keep their jobs in a BA subsidiary, BAEoG. Everyone else lost theirs, every shareholder lost their entire investment, Lloyds bank (who pulled the plug) didn't.
So ironically I was back into government work or as near as damn it, but on Dan-Air pay minus 10% (though we did at least get that reinstated). The following four years were not the happiest, best illustrated by a reported BA training meeting when profound concern was expressed due to this group of ex charter pilots compromising the very high standards of BA. They were reassured, but scarcely mollified, by being told that following our "harmonisation", we had been assessed on average as being BA above average!
They kicked me out at 55 and not wanting to retire yet I grabbed a job with Air Foyle that was operating the start-up EasyJet operation at LTN prior to it getting its own AOC. When the daily 140 mile grind round the M25 began to pall, I then switched to Virgin Express (ostensibly LGW based, but actually HOTAC'd at BRU for a week at a time). When they switched base to LHR I decided to hang up my headset rather than face further the delights of the M25.
Both of these latter two companies were great fun to work for. Hard work (up to 6 sectors a day), we had to do our own 20 mins turn round at EasyJet, ie fuel and oils, manual loadsheet, etc, while the cabin crew cleaned and prepped the cabin. Co-Pilots and Cabin Crew were usually young and starting out on their careers, keen to learn and improve, and hardworking. No doubt they were looking to move on as soon as their CVs allowed, but as a captain I could rely on them to always do their best.
So why this long self indulgent rambling? Simply to counter the aloof comments in this thread aimed at Jet2 and similar companies. The move to the civvie world is traumatic enough (well I found it so), without making the mistake of joining what is the wrong company for you. If like me you want to enjoy your work rather than simply go for the best pay, then think on. It can be hard work making the move such that the minutiae dominates one's attention rather than the final outcome. It is the latter though that is going to determine your subsequent career and job satisfaction.
I feel that I was lucky. Are you?