Jet2 anyone?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
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Good post Chugalug2
I left Auntie Betty's flying club in 1992 and, shortly after, joined a B757 charter outfit.
This was about the time that control of airlines was slowly but inexorably shifting from pilot managers to Human Resources - or Personnel as I still call them.
I am now on my fourth airline and at each, the effect of HR has been the same. They are totally in control, 'bottom line' focussed and bonus (theirs not ours) driven. In most cases they know plenty about business but little or nothing about aviation. FTLs are regarded as a target rather than a limit and concern for employee health (like everything else) comes well after commercial interests.
When I got my first wide body command, a Captain was generally held in the same status bracket as a surgeon or Judge. Now, due to the dumbing down of the industry and the power grab by HR we are viewed, generally, as bus drivers. At one expat company I worked for, the government was seriously considering altering our employment visas (skilled) to that of blue collar worker.
What I am trying to convey to the younger guys (low 30s) who might be about to leave mil flying is that the industry has changed enormously in the last 25-30 years. There are some decent jobs out there but choose wisely. You may well have 35 years of airline flying ahead of you, and ongoing 6 sector days, min rest, unable to get holidays when kids are off school, lack of choice over basing, separation from family, jetlag etc, etc, are not good for your health, your family or your marriage.
Apologies if I sound like a grumpy old git. I have worked hard at enjoying my post mil flying career and I feel that I have made the best of it. But I am very glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning.
I would do everything in my power to dissuade my children from a career as a commercial pilot - and conditions will, imho, continue to deteriorate.
Good luck to those still considering the move.
I left Auntie Betty's flying club in 1992 and, shortly after, joined a B757 charter outfit.
This was about the time that control of airlines was slowly but inexorably shifting from pilot managers to Human Resources - or Personnel as I still call them.
I am now on my fourth airline and at each, the effect of HR has been the same. They are totally in control, 'bottom line' focussed and bonus (theirs not ours) driven. In most cases they know plenty about business but little or nothing about aviation. FTLs are regarded as a target rather than a limit and concern for employee health (like everything else) comes well after commercial interests.
When I got my first wide body command, a Captain was generally held in the same status bracket as a surgeon or Judge. Now, due to the dumbing down of the industry and the power grab by HR we are viewed, generally, as bus drivers. At one expat company I worked for, the government was seriously considering altering our employment visas (skilled) to that of blue collar worker.
What I am trying to convey to the younger guys (low 30s) who might be about to leave mil flying is that the industry has changed enormously in the last 25-30 years. There are some decent jobs out there but choose wisely. You may well have 35 years of airline flying ahead of you, and ongoing 6 sector days, min rest, unable to get holidays when kids are off school, lack of choice over basing, separation from family, jetlag etc, etc, are not good for your health, your family or your marriage.
Apologies if I sound like a grumpy old git. I have worked hard at enjoying my post mil flying career and I feel that I have made the best of it. But I am very glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning.
I would do everything in my power to dissuade my children from a career as a commercial pilot - and conditions will, imho, continue to deteriorate.
Good luck to those still considering the move.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 25th Jan 2016 at 10:10.
I have no gripe with Jet2 - I don't know why people have inferred that I do.
The 'bucket and spade brigade' were those taking their annual holidays back in the '70s and '80s, with companies such as Dan Air and Monarch, off to their 2 weeks in the sun.
Emphatically NOT the same thing today. As an airline colleague, flying not for Jet2 or Monarch, I hasten to add, described them 'yobs and dole scroungers off to drink themselves stupid - quite dreadful people and I'm glad that we never have to talk to them these days'. He is rostered for quite dreadful flying at the mercy of 'schedulers' and the HR people, who have no concept of leadership. If I ever had to get up at 03:00, it was in support of QRA - whereas for him it's to fly another herd to some sun spot or other.
I held an ATPL when I left the RAF, but had absolutely no desire to be 'locked in a cupboard with a stranger 4 time a day' as another airline colleague described life on a lo-co. A couple of offers came my way, but I was content to survive on a service pension, augmented by GA instructing/examining and some consultancy work in support of a military requirement.
But if you've enjoyed your airline time, Chugalug2, then fine. Each to their own....
The 'bucket and spade brigade' were those taking their annual holidays back in the '70s and '80s, with companies such as Dan Air and Monarch, off to their 2 weeks in the sun.
Emphatically NOT the same thing today. As an airline colleague, flying not for Jet2 or Monarch, I hasten to add, described them 'yobs and dole scroungers off to drink themselves stupid - quite dreadful people and I'm glad that we never have to talk to them these days'. He is rostered for quite dreadful flying at the mercy of 'schedulers' and the HR people, who have no concept of leadership. If I ever had to get up at 03:00, it was in support of QRA - whereas for him it's to fly another herd to some sun spot or other.
I held an ATPL when I left the RAF, but had absolutely no desire to be 'locked in a cupboard with a stranger 4 time a day' as another airline colleague described life on a lo-co. A couple of offers came my way, but I was content to survive on a service pension, augmented by GA instructing/examining and some consultancy work in support of a military requirement.
But if you've enjoyed your airline time, Chugalug2, then fine. Each to their own....
Thomas Cook has a multi year, non seasonal, contract for one aircraft from AirTanker. I understood that 2 others would be going to Virgin and one to Jet2 (to replace the wet, or was it damp, lease A330 that the CAA disallowed last year.) That leaves one'surge'aircraft to be allocated. Or at least those were the December rumours.
Last edited by beardy; 26th Jan 2016 at 06:25.
I agree Chugalug. There's a lot of 'pomposity' amongst the more senior service pilots, in particular the cfs mafia, re 'Civvies' . I found the airline world at least if not more professional than the service (FJ and cfs). I worked harder but got more recognition for it and much more satisfaction and responsibility. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it!
Danny42c,
Danny, naughty naughty!
....."it's the capital of Pakistan!"...
The population of Bradford is 68% white British. 26% Asian or British Asian.
So just maybe it's the capital of West Yorkshire?
Danny, naughty naughty!
....."it's the capital of Pakistan!"...
The population of Bradford is 68% white British. 26% Asian or British Asian.
So just maybe it's the capital of West Yorkshire?
As a former RAF QFI ( A2, flying standards) myself, but an airline pilot, Captain, for almost 20 Years , I can assure you that an attitude of " superiority" by RAF QFIs and particularly by ex FJPs is seriously misplaced. Many non RAF pilots made first class Concorde captains, Is there a higher achievement ?
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 28th Jan 2016 at 01:58.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
It's all "horses for courses". I served twelve years in Her Majesty's Finest, then left for a civil career. After a transitional job, I found the one I liked (which included ten happy years at Leeds/Bradford), and stayed with them for twenty-three years until a take-over moved me out. Two years with another company and I suffered a nervous breakdown and had to retire. Would I go back, if I could? Not for a moment. I believe the whole industry, with a few exceptions, has moved the balance between authority and responsibility too far the wrong way.
pr00ne. Yep, the capital of the Independent Republic of West Yorkshire.
pr00ne. Yep, the capital of the Independent Republic of West Yorkshire.
tam:-
Oh, I wasn't restricting my harangue to superior Service pilots, there's just as much of it amongst the civvies, witness:-
RBA/BY:-
I understand that if you were a really, really, good Concorde captain that the dipsticks remained dry when dipped! 
The really high achievement in my view is to command; whether it be civil or military, big or small, fast or slow. Certain companies of course don't share that view, retaining big pay for big aircraft to the extent that their F/Os remain F/Os, not wishing to see a pay-cut by moving into the LHS of a smaller aircraft. One thing to watch out for if going civvie, the world of the professional F/O!
I agree Chugalug. There's a lot of 'pomposity' amongst the more senior service pilots, in particular the cfs mafia, re 'Civvies' .
RBA/BY:-
Concorde captains, Is there a higher achievement ?
The really high achievement in my view is to command; whether it be civil or military, big or small, fast or slow. Certain companies of course don't share that view, retaining big pay for big aircraft to the extent that their F/Os remain F/Os, not wishing to see a pay-cut by moving into the LHS of a smaller aircraft. One thing to watch out for if going civvie, the world of the professional F/O!
