Air Experience Flights; why two-seaters?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Experience Flights; why two-seaters?
Even in the good old days, getting airborne as an Air Cadet was mostly an all too rare pleasure. Why have Air Experience Flights always used two-seat aircraft? If a four seat aircraft was used, three times the number of cadets get to fly, for substantially the same cost. This would permit, say, a navex, perhaps changing seats, rather than the usual brief local hop. OK, only one has a set of controls in front of him but does that really matter? There's a host of suitable types; a Robin DR 400, for instance
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Leicestershire, England
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many 4-seat trainers did the RAF operate when the AEF came into being, and for that matter, now? Chippies and Bulldogs were plentiful, now the Tutor fulfils the role, why pay for another type for what is ultimately a limited number of flights per year, when those flights can be easily accommodated with a perfectly adequate for the job, existing type?
-RP
-RP
The AEF's had one, A Beagle Husky based at No 5 AEF at Cambridge in the 1970s and 80's. As a newly enrolled cadet, I expected to get my first powered flight in the thing as that was the aircraft that all the new cadets normally got their first trip in at Cambridge. However on my first trip up there, the thing was U/S, thus first flight in a Chippy with a lot of aeros and a bit of time of 'I have control'. Second Trip to 5 AEF, sees my CO look at my 3822 and noting that I didn't do the Husky as the first trip, I got stuck in the back of the thing for my second flight. It was the most boring flight I ever did in the cadets.
Air experience flights
I had mine as a boy entrant in 1959(St Athan) although we did jump in front of some ATC guys to get it!!There were three Avro Ansons doing the flights all with RAFVR pilots so there were four of us and pilot!Great fun as the pilots thought trying to be fighters was the way to go!Remember circling over the steel works at Port Talbot looking at the other two ansons going round in a circle!!Ah memories!!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Contortionist?
Sorry but pretty sure "changing seats" in a DR400 would be beyond the most gymnastic of cadets. And regardless, what a poor introduction to aviation the back of a light aircraft would be. Without access to the controls I would expect many more would be airsick, putting them off for life. These flights might be the trigger that inspires the next generation of pilots to put in the not insignificant amount of effort to be pilots. The AEF are great but the main focus should be on getting the cheaper gliding organisation back on its feet.
Stick cadets in back seats for their first (ever) flights and you would guarantee multiple technicolour yawns. When you have a cadet on a first ever, it's essential to keep a 'patter' going continually in order to keep their minds occupied because if they have time to think about puking, they will puke. When doing AE in both gliders and microlights, I found this technique always worked; keep 'em busy, get them to handle the controls, point out things of interest on the ground. You can really only do this with one passenger at a time, so any others would be sidelined.
My first Air Experience flight was in a piston Provost from Rissy in '62. It spoilt me for later Chipmunk AEF as you could 'communicate' with your instructor much better plus you could watch how he handled the controls and try to copy him.
My first Air Experience flight was in a piston Provost from Rissy in '62. It spoilt me for later Chipmunk AEF as you could 'communicate' with your instructor much better plus you could watch how he handled the controls and try to copy him.
5AEF was my local AEF and ISTR 5 chippie flights from there during my 4 years in the ATC plus one Husky trip to make up the numbers on the last trip of the day after a chipmunk trip-bonus. Flt Lt Blackmore was the pilot (I believe he was the only one qualified to fly it?)
I don't think sitting in the back of a 4 seater bothered me much- just glad to get airborne in anything!
WRT airsickness, the only time I was ever airsick on an AEF was during a flight check at Valley in a 115 Sqn Andover whilst at camp at BZZ, I wasn't the only one. Many years later I did feel slightly uncomfortable programming cadets for a 2 hour MCT Herc trip at LYE, wonder if it put any of them off?
I don't think sitting in the back of a 4 seater bothered me much- just glad to get airborne in anything!
WRT airsickness, the only time I was ever airsick on an AEF was during a flight check at Valley in a 115 Sqn Andover whilst at camp at BZZ, I wasn't the only one. Many years later I did feel slightly uncomfortable programming cadets for a 2 hour MCT Herc trip at LYE, wonder if it put any of them off?
As far as I'm aware, the only basic trainer used by the RAF which had more than 2 seats was the Percival Prentice, which had an additional seat in the back for another student to gain 'air experience'....
A thoroughly unsuccessful experiment and there must have been sighs of relief all round when the wretched things were replaced by the 'Piston' Provost.
A thoroughly unsuccessful experiment and there must have been sighs of relief all round when the wretched things were replaced by the 'Piston' Provost.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: One Three Seven, Disco Heaven.
Age: 65
Posts: 2,540
Likes: 0
Received 34 Likes
on
17 Posts
My first flight was in an Argosy on one of those test thingys 115 Sqn did. We were supposed to be doing a few airfields, but problems at Thorney got us off-loaded till they pounded the circuit, and we all got back on in the dark to head back to Cottesmore. Might sound boring, but I loved it, and now just like to be flying. Only thing about flying I don't like, is not having a window seat, or being able to see out.
I own a Bulldog outright; I have use of a Cirrus; a 4-seater. I have 10,000 hours, I am an ex RAF QFI,I have flown cadets in the AEF. I offered to fly cadets in my Bulldog. I filled in all the forms. Did I get a reply from HQ Air Cadets?
Not a chance.
Not a chance.
We once took an ATC cadet in the 6th seat in a Victor K1. Must have involved a lot of pre-flight palaver, learning how to operate the oxygen, escape through the door on the case of an abandonment etc, but anyway he came along.
He was a total PITA, chipping in on the intercom all the time complaining he was too hot, too cold, etc, until for some inexplicable reason his intercom failed and he was silent for the remainder of the trip!
We once took a WRAF air trafficker at Akrotiri. I was undeservedly mocked by the rest of the crew for quite innocently asking her if she would like to come and have a go with my stick. I naturally meant the shift control on the H2S radar!
PS - Can I have a go please Sharpend?
He was a total PITA, chipping in on the intercom all the time complaining he was too hot, too cold, etc, until for some inexplicable reason his intercom failed and he was silent for the remainder of the trip!
We once took a WRAF air trafficker at Akrotiri. I was undeservedly mocked by the rest of the crew for quite innocently asking her if she would like to come and have a go with my stick. I naturally meant the shift control on the H2S radar!
PS - Can I have a go please Sharpend?
I think for most cadets, the chance to get airborne in anything is welcome. Let's face it, most of them will subsequently only ever fly in an airliner in their adult lives.
In an ideal world, flying in something 'military' (Chippie, Bulldog, Grob) is always best, but if not then anything else will do if it fires the imagination and introduces new experiences (pleasant or not). It's all good character building stuff.
Personally I'd put my first Chipmunk flight down as one of the defining moments of my life and although I was never brave or bright enough to fly professionally I still enjoy the whole flying thing.
Throughout my 30 odd years of ground service I never turned down the offer of a trip (although sometimes wondered why during/afterwards). I'd like to think they made me a better operator.
In an ideal world, flying in something 'military' (Chippie, Bulldog, Grob) is always best, but if not then anything else will do if it fires the imagination and introduces new experiences (pleasant or not). It's all good character building stuff.
Personally I'd put my first Chipmunk flight down as one of the defining moments of my life and although I was never brave or bright enough to fly professionally I still enjoy the whole flying thing.
Throughout my 30 odd years of ground service I never turned down the offer of a trip (although sometimes wondered why during/afterwards). I'd like to think they made me a better operator.
Our school didn't have an RAF section of the CCF; even after I'd won an RAF Scholarship, I wasn't allowed an air experience flight in an AEF Chipmunk.
However, the Royal Navy was rather more flexible, so I had an air experience flight with them instead...
...in the coal hole of a Sea Vixen for the Farnborough Air Show
. Bouncing around in the low level turbulence whilst we formed up, I needed the honk bag, but the rest of the trip was brilliant!
And nowadays the RAF can't even unbugger its cadet gliding....
However, the Royal Navy was rather more flexible, so I had an air experience flight with them instead...
...in the coal hole of a Sea Vixen for the Farnborough Air Show
. Bouncing around in the low level turbulence whilst we formed up, I needed the honk bag, but the rest of the trip was brilliant!And nowadays the RAF can't even unbugger its cadet gliding....
We once took a WRAF air trafficker at Akrotiri.
Puke Merchants Not
As a squadron officer for 15 odd years I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of my cadets who yawned on any flight let alone their first.
Answer to question why 2 seater is self evident. Tis the lure...catch em young.
Five of my lads went onto great aircrew careers.
Answer to question why 2 seater is self evident. Tis the lure...catch em young.
Five of my lads went onto great aircrew careers.
Aaah AEF.
As a CCF cadet it seemd the world (almost) was my oyster. I got to fly in so many ac types I find it hard to remember them all; from school in Brighton we got Hastings, Beverleys, Argosies and visiting ac such as Varsity, Valetta, Britannia etc as pax from Thorney Island, including getting flown to annual camps by one or t'other for two of them. That in turn led to flights in Shackletons, Javelin, Canberra (in the B/A position for take off and landing!!), Meteors, Hunter, and Ansons and other smallish ac . I even got to fly in a Mosquito. There was 'dedicated' hands on flying in Chipmunks and plenty of glider flying in T4s and Sedberghs. All this flying was organised through the CCF organisation and thanks to hard working staff members who knew where to go! Every flight was added incentive to work hard to join and earn my own wings.
I didn't forget the CCF/AEF flying once in either. OK - you couldn't give cadets much hands on in the Shack but I was always (mostly) happy to take cadets flying on even the longer sorties, and once in the rotary world school visits and cadet flying were plentiful and fairly easy to organise.
However the rules just seemed to tighten and tighten. Latterly at DHFS they reached the stage where they had to be authorised way up the ladder, paper work was equally horrendous, and the chance of a cadet flying reduced to almost zero. Now this might not be the case in Strike/JHC, but, just as the debacle with the VGS system it seems the will to educate and involve the youngsters of today in aviation (and tomorrow's recruits) has been subsumed by a lack of interest by 'the system'.
As a final note, I used to fly with a captain who's passion for flying started as an ATC cadet when he used to fly with the ATA on delivery flights (in Halifax's and Stirlings amongst others) as someone to operate switches. How things have changed.
As a CCF cadet it seemd the world (almost) was my oyster. I got to fly in so many ac types I find it hard to remember them all; from school in Brighton we got Hastings, Beverleys, Argosies and visiting ac such as Varsity, Valetta, Britannia etc as pax from Thorney Island, including getting flown to annual camps by one or t'other for two of them. That in turn led to flights in Shackletons, Javelin, Canberra (in the B/A position for take off and landing!!), Meteors, Hunter, and Ansons and other smallish ac . I even got to fly in a Mosquito. There was 'dedicated' hands on flying in Chipmunks and plenty of glider flying in T4s and Sedberghs. All this flying was organised through the CCF organisation and thanks to hard working staff members who knew where to go! Every flight was added incentive to work hard to join and earn my own wings.
I didn't forget the CCF/AEF flying once in either. OK - you couldn't give cadets much hands on in the Shack but I was always (mostly) happy to take cadets flying on even the longer sorties, and once in the rotary world school visits and cadet flying were plentiful and fairly easy to organise.
However the rules just seemed to tighten and tighten. Latterly at DHFS they reached the stage where they had to be authorised way up the ladder, paper work was equally horrendous, and the chance of a cadet flying reduced to almost zero. Now this might not be the case in Strike/JHC, but, just as the debacle with the VGS system it seems the will to educate and involve the youngsters of today in aviation (and tomorrow's recruits) has been subsumed by a lack of interest by 'the system'.
As a final note, I used to fly with a captain who's passion for flying started as an ATC cadet when he used to fly with the ATA on delivery flights (in Halifax's and Stirlings amongst others) as someone to operate switches. How things have changed.
I puked on my first flight (Argosy, circuit bashing) and observed quite a few other cadets either on their first or subsequent flights, sometimes even well after we'd landed.
One day in the crewroom at Farnborough one of the pilots who had been a cadet himself walked in looking rather pale. I asked him what was wrong, he told me he'd been airsick for the first ever time in 5,000 odd hours. He'd just done a low level sortie through Wales in a Hunter but the other guy had been doing the flying. So it can happen to anyone anytime.
I used to take cadets flying on VC10 training flights - locals.
A bit like flying in an airliner but at least they could see the flight deck and what went on. They loved it.
Even if they didn't get the flight deck visits, they would have loved it because they were flying in an RAF aircraft. Same when they went on a Puma. Strapped in at the back with not a lot to see for most of them. Never a shortage of cadets wanting to go.
A bit like flying in an airliner but at least they could see the flight deck and what went on. They loved it.
Even if they didn't get the flight deck visits, they would have loved it because they were flying in an RAF aircraft. Same when they went on a Puma. Strapped in at the back with not a lot to see for most of them. Never a shortage of cadets wanting to go.