Children have no place in the British Army.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That statement contains the factual accuracy normally only seen in the Daily Mail.
Genstabler may find it simpler to label as lies events he finds hard to accept but the facts are;
a flying officer (I S) navigator radar on V Force squadron at RAF Marham was before a court martial in 1968 having failed to attend a mess dinner night, no other accusation was made beyond failing to obey an order.
He spent the evening before the court in my quarter and I was an officer under instruction at the trial. He was dismissed the service. I suppose the facts may be checked.
I have not touched the Daily Mail since they published a photograph of my good friend Laurie Davis's body on fire in a gutter, Genstabler can check that too.
It seems likely there was an issue with the admin senior officer pushing the case I cannot say, I think the accused had some characteristics, shared by many others including me, enabling some to object to him; he was a thinker but never disloyal and certainly not a coward.
There had been unseemly disquiet at an earlier 1 gp dinner at Bawtry, perhaps adding fuel.
This process was one of several odd legal issues that surfaced over the years. We had a SNCO aircrew court martial at RAE Bedford because the accused had claimed boarding school allowance improperly. I never understood it and nobody could explain the issues but it seemed command accountant officers were allowed to take different views about the same DCI.
My only brush with the system was dispute about what "direct" meant in home to duty travel, when I sent a 50 thou marked with each mile they gave up.
a flying officer (I S) navigator radar on V Force squadron at RAF Marham was before a court martial in 1968 having failed to attend a mess dinner night, no other accusation was made beyond failing to obey an order.
He spent the evening before the court in my quarter and I was an officer under instruction at the trial. He was dismissed the service. I suppose the facts may be checked.
I have not touched the Daily Mail since they published a photograph of my good friend Laurie Davis's body on fire in a gutter, Genstabler can check that too.
It seems likely there was an issue with the admin senior officer pushing the case I cannot say, I think the accused had some characteristics, shared by many others including me, enabling some to object to him; he was a thinker but never disloyal and certainly not a coward.
There had been unseemly disquiet at an earlier 1 gp dinner at Bawtry, perhaps adding fuel.
This process was one of several odd legal issues that surfaced over the years. We had a SNCO aircrew court martial at RAE Bedford because the accused had claimed boarding school allowance improperly. I never understood it and nobody could explain the issues but it seemed command accountant officers were allowed to take different views about the same DCI.
My only brush with the system was dispute about what "direct" meant in home to duty travel, when I sent a 50 thou marked with each mile they gave up.
Last edited by Tinribs; 24th Dec 2015 at 17:23. Reason: respond to other comments
"The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there".
The RAF of 1968 was closer in ethos to the RAF of 1918 than to the RAF of today. One example I can give resonates with Tinribs' account of the Marham court martial.
After a summer ball at an RAF station in FEAF in 1967, an RAF Police corporal who was patrolling in the vicinity of the officers mess in the early hours observed a female officer leaving the ground floor room of a male officer (the rooms gave onto open sided corridors). The snowdrop informed said lady that he would be reporting the matter, although if she wished to bestow her favours on him he might overlook the matter.
Having told the corporal exactly what she thought of his suggestion the lady went off to her own room, and to bed. To cut the story short, the matter was reported and both officers were summarily charged and appeared before the C in C, having agreed to accept his punishment to avoid court martial. Each was sentenced to lose 12 months seniority, and the punishment subsequently appeared in the London Gazette.
Such was the moral climate of the time, although it has to be said that 95% of mess members were pretty disgusted by the couple's treatment. Someone in today's RAF, where unmarried officers occupy MQs and same sex relationships are accepted may find this story incredible, but that was the RAF of the time - the swinging sixties was happening elsewhere!
The RAF of 1968 was closer in ethos to the RAF of 1918 than to the RAF of today. One example I can give resonates with Tinribs' account of the Marham court martial.
After a summer ball at an RAF station in FEAF in 1967, an RAF Police corporal who was patrolling in the vicinity of the officers mess in the early hours observed a female officer leaving the ground floor room of a male officer (the rooms gave onto open sided corridors). The snowdrop informed said lady that he would be reporting the matter, although if she wished to bestow her favours on him he might overlook the matter.
Having told the corporal exactly what she thought of his suggestion the lady went off to her own room, and to bed. To cut the story short, the matter was reported and both officers were summarily charged and appeared before the C in C, having agreed to accept his punishment to avoid court martial. Each was sentenced to lose 12 months seniority, and the punishment subsequently appeared in the London Gazette.
Such was the moral climate of the time, although it has to be said that 95% of mess members were pretty disgusted by the couple's treatment. Someone in today's RAF, where unmarried officers occupy MQs and same sex relationships are accepted may find this story incredible, but that was the RAF of the time - the swinging sixties was happening elsewhere!
We were told during OT (in 1968) that a male officer was not permitted to have a relationship with a WRAF officer at the same station....
In 1977 whilst I was holding at RAF Biggin Hill, a WRAF officer was going out with a male officer on the same unit - but to avoid the beady eye of the Queen Bee, they had to leave the OM at different times and meet up off base.
Even as late as 1984 a pilot was posted away from the station where I was serving, after confessing to having had his wicked way with a WRAF ATCO - but he was married and OCO's forbade such activity in those days. Although at a certain RAF base in Germany at about that time, there were rather different applications of that order......
In 1977 whilst I was holding at RAF Biggin Hill, a WRAF officer was going out with a male officer on the same unit - but to avoid the beady eye of the Queen Bee, they had to leave the OM at different times and meet up off base.
Even as late as 1984 a pilot was posted away from the station where I was serving, after confessing to having had his wicked way with a WRAF ATCO - but he was married and OCO's forbade such activity in those days. Although at a certain RAF base in Germany at about that time, there were rather different applications of that order......
We were told during OT (in 1968) that a male officer was not permitted to have a relationship with a WRAF officer at the same station....
"that a male officer was not permitted to have an emotional relationship with a WRAF officer at the same station."
Pete Stacey's unmistakable accent, in laconic puzzlement, was heard from the back of the room.
" Who said anything about emotion?"
Last edited by Haraka; 27th Dec 2015 at 09:56.
Hi Haraka, yes I don't think that RAFC really understood, in those days, that a 22 year old student officer wasn't quite the same as an 18 year old Flt Cdt!
Having escaped from the Nimrod, a chap who subsequently became an AEO on Scampton's finest Vulcan squadron (not that dead dog mob) arrived at Towers for his commissioning course. The night before it was due to start, he was chatting with a young lady in the mess bar...
Now this was a chap who could charm birds from trees and knickers off nuns, so one thing led to another and they subsequently repaired to her room for a little 'entertainment', after which he returned to his own pit in the early hours.
Imagine his surprise the next day when the young lady turned out to be his flight commander....
Having escaped from the Nimrod, a chap who subsequently became an AEO on Scampton's finest Vulcan squadron (not that dead dog mob) arrived at Towers for his commissioning course. The night before it was due to start, he was chatting with a young lady in the mess bar...
Now this was a chap who could charm birds from trees and knickers off nuns, so one thing led to another and they subsequently repaired to her room for a little 'entertainment', after which he returned to his own pit in the early hours.
Imagine his surprise the next day when the young lady turned out to be his flight commander....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Re the dining in courts martial and RAF ethos, I gained the distinct impression the if your face didn't fit then they would seek any means to get rid of you.
AEO at Waddo married a WRAF. He was told it was inappropriate behaviour conduct unbecoming. He pointed out the he was commissioned from Shacks and not your officer class. Met him decades later, still in uniform as an RO. Another also Waddo, pilotf this time was forced out; became a major in TA.
Same station, same time, divorced ex-AEOp, permanent fg off and hugely professional, OCAdmin as PMC made his life as unpleasant as possible.
And so on . . .
Now who were the children?
AEO at Waddo married a WRAF. He was told it was inappropriate behaviour conduct unbecoming. He pointed out the he was commissioned from Shacks and not your officer class. Met him decades later, still in uniform as an RO. Another also Waddo, pilotf this time was forced out; became a major in TA.
Same station, same time, divorced ex-AEOp, permanent fg off and hugely professional, OCAdmin as PMC made his life as unpleasant as possible.
And so on . . .
Now who were the children?
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 27th Dec 2015 at 16:13.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far North of Watford
Age: 82
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You get some perspective when you recall that a young officer friend was dismissed the service by Court Martial for disobeying a legal order.
Would the victim have got anywhere by starting redress proceedings after lodging written reasons for not attending the dinner, and then obeying by attending it?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May have changed now but at one time it was possible to join at 15-16, as a boy entrant, but there was still the opportunity to opt out at the end of Boys Service and before entering Mans Service.
We had half a dozen lads under eighteen who were posted out before our unit went to Aden in 1963.
Don't think the journalist in the Guardian comprehends the difference between Boys and Mens service, if he does then he is deliberately obfuscating.
We had half a dozen lads under eighteen who were posted out before our unit went to Aden in 1963.
Don't think the journalist in the Guardian comprehends the difference between Boys and Mens service, if he does then he is deliberately obfuscating.
Parabellum.
I don't remember that being an option when I joined. I went to Locking in January 1962 aged 15 1/2. There was an option to go which lasted for the first few weeks, after that you were in, man and boy, unless you had £300.00 to buy yourself out, a lot of money in those days.
I don't remember that being an option when I joined. I went to Locking in January 1962 aged 15 1/2. There was an option to go which lasted for the first few weeks, after that you were in, man and boy, unless you had £300.00 to buy yourself out, a lot of money in those days.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 87
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was 15 in March, left school at Easter and was a Boy Entrant on the 22nd May 1952.
I passed out still under 17 1/2, so was still a B/E, though wore my 'sparks' badge and was paid AC2's rate. Couldn't sign a F700, so wasn't assigned to work on a/c until old enough to sign.
Became an 'Airman' at 17 1/2, but my 10 year engagement only started on my 18th birthday.
No options to leave, other than to buy myself out. Can't remember the cost, but never wanted to.
I passed out still under 17 1/2, so was still a B/E, though wore my 'sparks' badge and was paid AC2's rate. Couldn't sign a F700, so wasn't assigned to work on a/c until old enough to sign.
Became an 'Airman' at 17 1/2, but my 10 year engagement only started on my 18th birthday.
No options to leave, other than to buy myself out. Can't remember the cost, but never wanted to.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Glesga, Scotland
Age: 51
Posts: 230
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The one I always found strange was in a book by Randy Zhan(?) .Think it was called "Snake eyes" he was a cobra pilot in Vietnam, who despite being trusted to fly a multi million pound helo and saving/taking life's .
Wasn't aloud to sign a credit agreement on base !
I think there is was something about him also not being legally aloud to drive a jeep on base either . But am not 100% sure on that one now . (Grey cells are fading)
Wasn't aloud to sign a credit agreement on base !
I think there is was something about him also not being legally aloud to drive a jeep on base either . But am not 100% sure on that one now . (Grey cells are fading)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Penzance, Cornwall UK
Age: 84
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Things certainly change with the times. Some 16 year olds will be allowed to participate in elections soon. I think the proper age for that should be the same as enlisting to serve in the armed forces - but then, I'm an old dinosaur!
The Oberon wrote:
That's how I remember it. I think it was the first 28 days were free then after that you had to cough up the cash. Anyone who went down that route was immediately classed as 'CT' (Ceased Training) and put into isolation whilst the paperwork was processed. They weren't allowed any contact with those that wished to stay, were accommodated in a separate hut and ate their meals at a specific table in the mess set apart from the rest of the tables. Looking back, it was almost a form of arrest. An unheated hut at Hereford during the winter can't have been too pleasant.
I don't remember that being an option when I joined. I went to Locking in January 1962 aged 15 1/2. There was an option to go which lasted for the first few weeks, after that you were in, man and boy, unless you had £300.00 to buy yourself out, a lot of money in those days.
The RAF of 1968 was closer in ethos to the RAF of 1918 than to the RAF of today.
I'd say the RAF of 1993 had a closer ethos to the RAF of 1918 than today,
Shortly before I left in 1990, we had a visit from P & SS doing the lecture and projector tour. They punctuated each short movie with an anecdotal story about drugs offences, that was the theme on this occasion, however, one of the Provost Officer's stories revolved around surprising two young airmen (to do with drug abuse) in the same room together. By way of a witty aside, he pointed out that because at least one foot was on the floor it negated the need for them to be investigated over another matter amounting to a breach of good old fashioned moral 1918 style.
FB
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FB, isn't discipline a wonderful thing. Probably more plods per head on a base than in the population at large.
This is really interesting. An old boy I used to work with in MoD was captured at St Valery with the 51st HD aged 14, and spent the war in a PoW camp in Poland.
On a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc.
On a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc.
This is really interesting. An old boy I used to work with in MoD was captured at St Valery with the 51st HD aged 14, and spent the war in a PoW camp in Poland.
On a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc.
On a slightly different subject, it has recently been mooted that Police and Fire Service merge. That'll be entertaining. FS won't have 16 year olds, but 16 year old police cadets will still be expected to enter burning buildings, attend RTAs, etc.