5 years ago today........
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5 years ago today........
I'm surprised that no one has started a thread to the demise of the Harrier as today is the 5th anniversary of the last flights at RAF Cottesmore.
A lot of water has gone under the bridge since, loads of rhetoric spoken by many people as to the rights and wrong of the decision, but life moves on.
RIP JFH, enjoyed my time supporting the fleet.
A lot of water has gone under the bridge since, loads of rhetoric spoken by many people as to the rights and wrong of the decision, but life moves on.
RIP JFH, enjoyed my time supporting the fleet.
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Dont miss them, it at all.
Harrier was dead to the Navy the second the last FA 2 landed at Yeovilton (under Labour).
And Cameron would argue it hasn't been missed operationally and nor was the RAF version, since demised as you said. And nor were the carriers missed; not required and not missed by the UK taxpayer either. Million a day and all that.
And personally, I'm not nostalgic for those days. Working with them, for them, for the Yeovilton SHAR squadrons and that clique, was bloody horrible at times. I just never liked that particular Harrier set of people that much. Much preferred the other times/people in the Navy outside that bubble, if I'm blunt and truthful.
And Cameron would argue it hasn't been missed operationally and nor was the RAF version, since demised as you said. And nor were the carriers missed; not required and not missed by the UK taxpayer either. Million a day and all that.
And personally, I'm not nostalgic for those days. Working with them, for them, for the Yeovilton SHAR squadrons and that clique, was bloody horrible at times. I just never liked that particular Harrier set of people that much. Much preferred the other times/people in the Navy outside that bubble, if I'm blunt and truthful.
...... if I'm blunt and truthful.
Well, HS, from your very first post onwards I believe that most of them have contained a fair amount of bluntness and, to be fair, quite a lot of food for thought.
Jack
Well, HS, from your very first post onwards I believe that most of them have contained a fair amount of bluntness and, to be fair, quite a lot of food for thought.
Jack
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HS, Cameron may well say all of that to justify cutting JFH, but it proves he's out of touch with reality. Recent evidence suggested that he doesn't even know half of what goes on within his own Cabinet.
UK politics is becoming a joke, if it wasn't there already!
UK politics is becoming a joke, if it wasn't there already!
Actually, HS, you make a good point there. I hadn't looked at it that way before. As things worked out neither the aircraft nor the carrier have actually been missed - apart from those that loved it, understandably. All the ops that Britain has conducted have managed very well with other equipment. Maybe Britain has been lucky, in a way, I hope that's the case or all the cash for the new ships will have been wasted.
I might also say that your bluntness and truthfulness there go a long way to explain your occasional appearance as being a bit "anti".
I might also say that your bluntness and truthfulness there go a long way to explain your occasional appearance as being a bit "anti".
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You know HS I was going to make a comment about how you dislike anyone who was a Naval Officer, not just Stovies, but I actually feel a bit sorry for you.
I really hope that when the time comes to leave, I do it at the right time. You call it the honest truth, but it just comes across as bitter.
I really hope that when the time comes to leave, I do it at the right time. You call it the honest truth, but it just comes across as bitter.
Last edited by AutoBit; 16th Dec 2015 at 03:22.
I remember being told I was being promoted but they were sorry I was posted to Cottesmore and JFH. I arrived to find a Station that had no money to fix anything, so roofs leaking etc was the norm but we had wonderful new pans for the Harriers to park on as the single pan that TTTE managed with, was deemed not suitable for 3 Harrier Sqns. In my first week the Stn Cdr ordered all Tornado memorabilia be removed from the Sgts Mess and on my first table top exercise informed me the Ground crew would be left behind if the day came a FARP had to be evacuated. The Harrier world to me was a strange one, and one I never really got.
My tour never got any better, the only bad one in 27 years. The Jaguar OCU was run on a shoestring but it had great people involved, big difference.
That being said the aircraft like the Jaguar had useful life left in it, and we are indeed fortunate the wars we have since been involved in have meant the aircraft have not been missed.
My tour never got any better, the only bad one in 27 years. The Jaguar OCU was run on a shoestring but it had great people involved, big difference.
That being said the aircraft like the Jaguar had useful life left in it, and we are indeed fortunate the wars we have since been involved in have meant the aircraft have not been missed.
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Perhaps it is true that in the five years since it retired, as Courtney says, we haven't really missed it. I hear lots of comments along the lines of 'shame', 'what a waste' etc from people outside the forces with no direct knowledge of the various capabilities that the different fast jet fleets had at the time, but not from those whose knowledge is direct or first hand.
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Ok I'll bite.
Firstly all three Harrier Sqns operated from the same single pan that the Tornados used. There was no new pan built even up to the last day of flying. The building used were all ex TTTE buildings, with the exception of NSW which was purpose built because it was going to house two Sqns.
As for taking down all Tornado memorabilia from the Sgts mess by order of the Stn Cdr, Im going to call BS on that. Firstly thats the preserve of the CMC of the Sgt Mess, not the CO, and given that the Officers Mess still had plenty of Tornado pics in (as did the Sgts Mess when I was there for exchange drinks), I was either imaging it, or you're just making stuff up.
Im all for a bit of Harrier banter, but maybe we could at least try and keep a tiny element of truth in some of these stories.
Whats the difference between a Harrier and a Harrier pilot?
At least the Harrier stops whining at the end of the flight.
Firstly all three Harrier Sqns operated from the same single pan that the Tornados used. There was no new pan built even up to the last day of flying. The building used were all ex TTTE buildings, with the exception of NSW which was purpose built because it was going to house two Sqns.
As for taking down all Tornado memorabilia from the Sgts mess by order of the Stn Cdr, Im going to call BS on that. Firstly thats the preserve of the CMC of the Sgt Mess, not the CO, and given that the Officers Mess still had plenty of Tornado pics in (as did the Sgts Mess when I was there for exchange drinks), I was either imaging it, or you're just making stuff up.
Im all for a bit of Harrier banter, but maybe we could at least try and keep a tiny element of truth in some of these stories.
Whats the difference between a Harrier and a Harrier pilot?
At least the Harrier stops whining at the end of the flight.
Autobit,
When were you at Cottesmore? circa 2001 the single pan TTTE used (down by VASS) and the crews were bused to was never used by the Harriers. The pan in front of the 4 hangers where the Harriers lived was built specifically for them along with the Wendy house.
Thank you for dismissing my Tornado memorabilia memory, the thought just popped into my head and I must have made it up, why I would do so escapes me though.
I have no need to "make stuff up" when it comes to the Harrier and Cottesmore.
Were you a Harrier pilot?
When were you at Cottesmore? circa 2001 the single pan TTTE used (down by VASS) and the crews were bused to was never used by the Harriers. The pan in front of the 4 hangers where the Harriers lived was built specifically for them along with the Wendy house.
Thank you for dismissing my Tornado memorabilia memory, the thought just popped into my head and I must have made it up, why I would do so escapes me though.
I have no need to "make stuff up" when it comes to the Harrier and Cottesmore.
Were you a Harrier pilot?
I had occasion to do some work at Cottesmore in 2006/7 and I have to say it was the most unfriendly station I've ever been to, so I can see why some folks here have reservations about it. The Staish (SB) was one of the few people there that were genuinely nice to us.
I was under the impression that the Harrier pan was relatively new and one of my colleagues there had mentioned that it wasn't there during his TTTE days.
I was under the impression that the Harrier pan was relatively new and one of my colleagues there had mentioned that it wasn't there during his TTTE days.
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Skeleton,
5/6 Harrier Sqns were never going to fit onto the VASS line, and so there was a choice between extending the VASS/TTTE line, or extending the existing line and tarmac up around the hangers. It was easier to extend the pan around the hangers, and also allowed the Sqns to be situated by the a/c, which made life easier for the engineers. Seems a sensible decision to me. VASS was used by Harriers as the Hotpit and forward firing line until the North side was re-surfaced.
In my 9 years at Cott there was TTTE memorabilia in both mess's, and again I reiterate the point that I just don't believe the Stn Cdr would order the CMC to do something in the Sgts Mess that wasn't done in the Officers Mess.
Lets agree to disagree. You hated it, I had an absolutely brilliant 9 years there with some great air and ground-crew.
5/6 Harrier Sqns were never going to fit onto the VASS line, and so there was a choice between extending the VASS/TTTE line, or extending the existing line and tarmac up around the hangers. It was easier to extend the pan around the hangers, and also allowed the Sqns to be situated by the a/c, which made life easier for the engineers. Seems a sensible decision to me. VASS was used by Harriers as the Hotpit and forward firing line until the North side was re-surfaced.
In my 9 years at Cott there was TTTE memorabilia in both mess's, and again I reiterate the point that I just don't believe the Stn Cdr would order the CMC to do something in the Sgts Mess that wasn't done in the Officers Mess.
Lets agree to disagree. You hated it, I had an absolutely brilliant 9 years there with some great air and ground-crew.
Last edited by AutoBit; 17th Dec 2015 at 00:30.
Forgive me as a non-pilot, but I think there is much in what Hangarshuffle says. I found the individuals at Yeovilton Air Station superb, and as an engineer I tended to know the maintainers, but across the road in the RN’s Aircraft Support Executive is where I always thought the SHAR demise started.
I was project manager for some of the major avionics in the late 80s/early 90s and they just didn’t give a toss. Just as Blue Fox radar was going out of service at a rate of 3-4 sets a month (total about 55 sets), they authorised a 10 year spares buy. That denuded the Blue Vixen radar funding, just as it was entering service. Thankfully, it was superb kit and exceeded reliability targets, but we wondered at the sanity of it all. Millions had been spent on MADGE Phase 2 (NFIMS/MDDLS) and they just suddenly declared it all consumable, with £100k LRUs scrapped for the sake of a £20 repair. (Not helped by a rating reversing a 4 Tonne truck over the MDDLS kit). One irate BoI president phoned me to ask why only one squadron was fitted. I was surprised they managed that. He went ape when told the truth. At one point, I loaded 25 scrapped TWTs (£15k each) in the boot of my car, took them to EEV at Witham and recovered 19 for under £500; which helped that one squadron stay serviceable for a few months. Then they told EEV to just scrap the (MoD-owned) vacuum chambers as they wouldn’t pay for their upkeep. The same happened at Thorn-EMI Varian on the radar magnetrons. The waste was astronomical and no matter how hard you try, the beancounters are always going to spot ambivalence about an expensive capability. No doubt there were other reasons, but I just thought the RN, at a certain level, didn’t put up too much of a fight. Very sad.
I was project manager for some of the major avionics in the late 80s/early 90s and they just didn’t give a toss. Just as Blue Fox radar was going out of service at a rate of 3-4 sets a month (total about 55 sets), they authorised a 10 year spares buy. That denuded the Blue Vixen radar funding, just as it was entering service. Thankfully, it was superb kit and exceeded reliability targets, but we wondered at the sanity of it all. Millions had been spent on MADGE Phase 2 (NFIMS/MDDLS) and they just suddenly declared it all consumable, with £100k LRUs scrapped for the sake of a £20 repair. (Not helped by a rating reversing a 4 Tonne truck over the MDDLS kit). One irate BoI president phoned me to ask why only one squadron was fitted. I was surprised they managed that. He went ape when told the truth. At one point, I loaded 25 scrapped TWTs (£15k each) in the boot of my car, took them to EEV at Witham and recovered 19 for under £500; which helped that one squadron stay serviceable for a few months. Then they told EEV to just scrap the (MoD-owned) vacuum chambers as they wouldn’t pay for their upkeep. The same happened at Thorn-EMI Varian on the radar magnetrons. The waste was astronomical and no matter how hard you try, the beancounters are always going to spot ambivalence about an expensive capability. No doubt there were other reasons, but I just thought the RN, at a certain level, didn’t put up too much of a fight. Very sad.
Originally Posted by autobit
Firstly all three Harrier Sqns operated from the same single pan that the Tornados used. There was no new pan built even up to the last day of flying.
Originally Posted by autobit
5/6 Harrier Sqns were never going to fit onto the VASS line, and so there was a choice between extending the VASS/TTTE line, or extending the existing line and tarmac up around the hangers. It was easier to extend the pan around the hangers
The new pan was hardly an extension. Look at what was there before.
BEFORE
AFTER
Sorry about rubbish graphics, but they illustrate the new pan.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 17th Dec 2015 at 08:41.
Their were a few left over from TTTE days when I arrived and they showed me where the Tonka's operated from, down by VASS, and said the crews were bussed to the aircraft, they were Air Traffikers so I imagine they would know what the airfield looked like. I have a picture but do not how to get in on here of the area in front of those hangers during TTTE days and it was a taxiway, The new pan was built when the Harrier Mexe pads went in.
