Where has it all gone wrong?
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Where has it all gone wrong?
In my youth we had 14 operational Scimitars and Vixens on HMS Hermes, a light fleet carrier. This seems to be the operational front line strength of the entire RAF !!
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No.
Just read the official figures, and move on.
Anyway, are you advocating building a few light CVA and resurrecting those 2 highly hazardous airframes? I lost many colleagues from my Dartmouth entry flying them.
Just read the official figures, and move on.
Anyway, are you advocating building a few light CVA and resurrecting those 2 highly hazardous airframes? I lost many colleagues from my Dartmouth entry flying them.
4Greens,
No you are not. You are merely quoting totally incorrect and wholly inaccurate nonsense.
No you are not. You are merely quoting totally incorrect and wholly inaccurate nonsense.
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4Greens ... if it's any comfort, I'm 'sic' too, having first joined BRNC in 63.
But I have to accept that the World has moved on. And 'numbers' don't equal 'capability' these days. And anyway, the QE class will have loads of F-35 ... eventually.
I weep quietly for the huge old RAF I knew, but equally accept it's a different time and place, as it is in spades for the RN and, indeed, the Army. But they're neither affordable, nor necessary ... if we're lucky!
But I have to accept that the World has moved on. And 'numbers' don't equal 'capability' these days. And anyway, the QE class will have loads of F-35 ... eventually.
I weep quietly for the huge old RAF I knew, but equally accept it's a different time and place, as it is in spades for the RN and, indeed, the Army. But they're neither affordable, nor necessary ... if we're lucky!
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Come on guys it's Friday let's not flame another thread into nonsense. I think the point 4Greens is making is that should we be asked to surge for something like GW1 we would look pretty thin on the ground compared to 15 years ago let alone 50. I think the real question is are we as effective now with a reduced force as we were years ago?
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Fair call, and the answer is ... All of UK Mil will be in overstretch if anything serious is imposed on us.
We are sadly in gnat-bite territory, have been for ages [despite capability increases] and we just need to learn to live with that. I hate it as much as anyone, but there hasn't been the money or justification for the massive Forces we used to have for a long time.
We are sadly in gnat-bite territory, have been for ages [despite capability increases] and we just need to learn to live with that. I hate it as much as anyone, but there hasn't been the money or justification for the massive Forces we used to have for a long time.
Berlin airlift anyone?... (I know most of them were civvy)
Seriously though, I got a look in the cockpit of a C!7 a few years back and last year a ride-along in the cockpit of an A400. Very impressive!
I think I saw a quote about the uplift of the USAF during GW2 and the Allied transport aircraft shifted more tonnage than during the whole of the Berlin Airlift.
Not saying we have the force structure right (which is what we can afford as long as we are still able to pick and choose which of other peoples' conflicts we get involved in)
Flug
Seriously though, I got a look in the cockpit of a C!7 a few years back and last year a ride-along in the cockpit of an A400. Very impressive!
I think I saw a quote about the uplift of the USAF during GW2 and the Allied transport aircraft shifted more tonnage than during the whole of the Berlin Airlift.
Not saying we have the force structure right (which is what we can afford as long as we are still able to pick and choose which of other peoples' conflicts we get involved in)
Flug
Arclite01,
He'd be laughing out of ignorance.
Any member of the 2015 RAF would have every right to laugh at the "capability" demonstrated by the RAF at Suez.
He'd be laughing out of ignorance.
Any member of the 2015 RAF would have every right to laugh at the "capability" demonstrated by the RAF at Suez.
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Proone
Operation MUSKETEER RAF Order of Battle:
Royal Air Force
By my reading that was a comprehensive air force, not relying upon allies.
The RN managed to put these assets in the area:
In the 1950's this was a fairly substantial force. In all honesty I believe the Lordships, and their Airships would be very excited to have such forces available today.
Any member of the 2015 RAF would have every right to laugh at the "capability" demonstrated by the RAF at Suez.
Royal Air Force
- No. 1 Squadron RAF[5] with Hawker Hunter F.5's.[6]
- No. 6 Squadron RAF[7] with de Havilland Venom FB.4's.[7]
- No. 8 Squadron RAF[7] with Venom FB.4's.[7]
- No. 9 Squadron RAF[5] with English Electric Canberra B.6's.[8]
- No. 10 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.2's.[9]
- No. 12 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.6's.[10]
- No. 13 Squadron RAF[7] with Canberra PR.7's.[7]
- No. 15 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.2's.[11]
- No. 18 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.2's.[12]
- No. 27 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.2's.[13]
- No. 30 Squadron RAF[5] with Vickers Valetta C.1's.[14]
- No. 34 Squadron RAF[5] with Hunter F.5's.[15]
- No. 39 Squadron RAF[7] with Gloster Meteor NF.13's.[7]
- No. 44 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.2's.[16]
- No. 61 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.2's.[17]
- No. 99 Squadron RAF[5] with Handley Page Hastings C.1 & C.2's.[18]
- No. 101 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.6's.[19]
- No. 109 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.6's.[20]
- No. 138 Squadron RAF[5] with Vickers Valiant B.1's, B(PR) 1's, B(PR)K 1's and B(K) 1's.[21]
- No. 139 Squadron RAF[5] with Canberra B.6's.[21]
- No. 148 Squadron RAF[5] with Valiant B.1's, B(PR) 1's, B(PR)K 1's and B(K) 1's.[22]
- No. 207 Squadron RAF[5] with Valiant B.1's, B(PR) 1's and B(K) 1's.[23]
- No. 214 Squadron RAF[5] with Valiant B.1's, B(PR) 1's, B(PR)K 1's and B(K) 1's.[24]
- No. 249 Squadron RAF with Venom FB.4's.
- No. 511 Squadron RAF[5] with Hastings C.1 & C.2's.[25]
By my reading that was a comprehensive air force, not relying upon allies.
The RN managed to put these assets in the area:
- 1st Destroyer Squadron; HMS Chieftain, HMS Chevron, HMS Chaplet
- 2nd Destroyer Squadron; HMS Daring
- 3rd Destroyer Squadron; HMS Armada, HMS Barfleur, HMS Gravelines, HMS St. Kitts
- 4th Destroyer Squadron; HMS Alamein, HMS Corunna, HMS Barrosa, HMS Agincourt
- 6th Destroyer Squadron: HMS Cavendish
- 5th Frigate Squadron: HMS Wakeful, HMS Whirlwind, HMS Wizard
- 6th Frigate Squadron: HMS Undine, HMS Urania, HMS Ulysses, HMS Ursa
- Aircraft carriers: HMS Albion, HMS Bulwark, HMS Eagle, HMS Ocean, HMS Theseus
- Tank landing ships: HMS Anzio, HMS Bastion, HMS Buttress, HMS Citadel, HMS Counterguard, HMS Evan Gibb, HMS Empire Cymric, HMS Empire Cedric, HMS Empire Celtic, HMS Empire Doric, HMS Lofoten, HMS Loftus, HMS Empire Baltic, HMS Portcullis, HMS Parapet, HMS Puncher, HMS Rampart, HMS Ravager, HMS Redoubt, HMS Striker, HMS Reggio, HMS Sallyport, HMS Salerno, HMS Sulva
- Minesweepers: HMS Appleton, HMS Darlaston, HMS Letterson, HMS Leverton, HMS Penstone
- Net-layers: HMS Barnstone, HMS Barhill
- Cruisers: HMS Bermuda, HMS Ceylon, HMS Jamaica, HMS Newfoundland
- HMS Childers (destroyer)
- HMS Comet (destroyer)
- HMS Contest (destroyer)
- HMS Decoy (destroyer)
- HMS Defender (destroyer)
- HMS Delight (destroyer)
- HMS Diana (destroyer)
- HMS Diamond (destroyer)
- HMS Duchess (destroyer)
- HMS Crane (sloop)
- HMS Modeste (sloop)
- HMS Meon (frigate)
- HMS Dalrymple (survey vessel)
- Submarine depot ships: HMS Forth, HMS Rampura
- HMS Manxman (Minelayer)
- HMS Tyne (Headquarters ship)
- HMS Woodbridge Haven (Depot ship)
- HMMRC1097 (Landing craft repair ship)
- Submarines: HMS Sea Devil, HMS Sentinel, HMS Totem, HMS Trenchant, HMS Tudor
In the 1950's this was a fairly substantial force. In all honesty I believe the Lordships, and their Airships would be very excited to have such forces available today.
Kitbag,
It's capability and military effect that counts, not numbers of what were in effect virtually gas turbine powered Blenheims!
Today's RAF could repeat Op Musketeer without using it's entite frontline force.
Not that it would though, who'd want to repeat a foreign policy disaster only equalled, possibly, by Iraq in 2003.
It's capability and military effect that counts, not numbers of what were in effect virtually gas turbine powered Blenheims!
Today's RAF could repeat Op Musketeer without using it's entite frontline force.
Not that it would though, who'd want to repeat a foreign policy disaster only equalled, possibly, by Iraq in 2003.
Really?
You do make I laugh...
You do make I laugh...
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Proone, nope, I have to disagree. Overwhelming force will swamp limited defensive capacity.
The point being that Typhoon & Tornado are good ac being deployed in limited numbers and probably with restrictive ROE.
Assuming the fast jet sqns delivered (conservatively) 8 ac into the order of battle, that is 48 Hunter/Meteor/Venom, 80 Canberra, and 24 Valiant.
The collateral damage will have been much greater, but so will the effect.
Not including the RNs ability to deliver sh!t on the enemy.
The point being that Typhoon & Tornado are good ac being deployed in limited numbers and probably with restrictive ROE.
Assuming the fast jet sqns delivered (conservatively) 8 ac into the order of battle, that is 48 Hunter/Meteor/Venom, 80 Canberra, and 24 Valiant.
The collateral damage will have been much greater, but so will the effect.
Not including the RNs ability to deliver sh!t on the enemy.
IIRC when planning to bomb a road bridge in the FE, with the CMPI we could achieve in the Canberra, it would take 100 x 1000lb bombs to do it. Since each Canberra would drop a stick of 6 x bombs, it would take 16 sorties, ie the whole squardon twice! Even in GW1 a single Tornado could do it with one run dropping 3 x 1000lbs.
However you do have a very good point about numbers over the target in a hostile AD environment,
However you do have a very good point about numbers over the target in a hostile AD environment,
Four Tornados carrying five Paveway IVs each can probably achieve as much intentional military effect in a single mission as a WW2 bomber raid of hundreds of aircraft. Even as recently as 20 years ago, those four Tornados might have been assigned only two (or at a push, four) aiming points on a pre-planned mission, versus up to twenty today. Granted, most pre-planned missions would do fewer (not least, to make room for a targeting pod on each aircraft), but the capability is there nevertheless.
The bold is important - the other effects of WW2 bomber raids certainly couldn't be repeated with the size of force available today, but I don't think that is something we should lament.
The bold is important - the other effects of WW2 bomber raids certainly couldn't be repeated with the size of force available today, but I don't think that is something we should lament.
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MPN11,
I reckon you've hit the nail on the head with your #7:
.
I poked about a bit in Google, and came up with (in the context of Hitler's reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936 [yes, I can remember it !] - the last time,IMHO, wheh he could have been stopped):
Plus ça change......We are in the same position today - "All mouth and no trousers".
Danny.
I reckon you've hit the nail on the head with your #7:
I hate it as much as anyone, but there hasn't been the money or justification for the massive Forces we used to have for a long time
I poked about a bit in Google, and came up with (in the context of Hitler's reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936 [yes, I can remember it !] - the last time,IMHO, wheh he could have been stopped):
Appeasement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.... His (Hitler's) officers had orders to withdraw if they met French resistance.....
....France consulted Britain and lodged protests with the League, but took no action. Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin said that Britain lacked the forces to back its guarantees to France, and that in any case public opinion would not allow it....
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.... His (Hitler's) officers had orders to withdraw if they met French resistance.....
....France consulted Britain and lodged protests with the League, but took no action. Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin said that Britain lacked the forces to back its guarantees to France, and that in any case public opinion would not allow it....
Danny.