Fact or Fiction
ME pilots will probably remember those 'arrival messages' we had to send to Artichoke:
"Ascot 9999 departed EGVN at 0850/0900, arrived ZZZZ at 1300/1310" etc? For my civvy logbook, I would record the 0850 and 1310 times and for my military logbook, the 0900 and 1300 times.
Which was about the only worthwhile purpose for those messages!
"Ascot 9999 departed EGVN at 0850/0900, arrived ZZZZ at 1300/1310" etc? For my civvy logbook, I would record the 0850 and 1310 times and for my military logbook, the 0900 and 1300 times.
Which was about the only worthwhile purpose for those messages!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 66
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
As a slight aside ... I knew many years ago a Lt. Cdr. RN who had a good 'Five Digits' Total Time, but in one of his Annual Summaries in his Log Book he declared a total of XX,XXX Hrs. 75 Mins. 
A great chap who flew during the final stages of WWII and continued into the 50's flying the Fairey Firefly.
A great chap who flew during the final stages of WWII and continued into the 50's flying the Fairey Firefly.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two more points to add to this fact or fiction:
1. It seems to me that the mil way of logging time has been around longer than the commercial way of logging time.
2. The commercial way of logging time might be related to how commercial pilots (and other aircrew) get paid. Many (most?) are paid by the hour (I certainly was.) The commercial pilot is "on the clock" from chocks out to chocks in, so that's how its logged. Some airlines pay from "door closed" to "door open" (referring to the main cabin door) which corresponds pretty closely with chocks out to chocks in. That way if there are taxi delays or takeoff delays, the crew gets paid for the entire time the chocks were out.
This is also why, when the weather closes down an airport after the plane has pushed back, the crew avoids going back to the gate and make the passengers wait in the aircraft for hours and hours rather than waiting in the terminal. The flight crew gets paid for waiting in the aircraft, and not for waiting in the terminal.
1. It seems to me that the mil way of logging time has been around longer than the commercial way of logging time.
2. The commercial way of logging time might be related to how commercial pilots (and other aircrew) get paid. Many (most?) are paid by the hour (I certainly was.) The commercial pilot is "on the clock" from chocks out to chocks in, so that's how its logged. Some airlines pay from "door closed" to "door open" (referring to the main cabin door) which corresponds pretty closely with chocks out to chocks in. That way if there are taxi delays or takeoff delays, the crew gets paid for the entire time the chocks were out.
This is also why, when the weather closes down an airport after the plane has pushed back, the crew avoids going back to the gate and make the passengers wait in the aircraft for hours and hours rather than waiting in the terminal. The flight crew gets paid for waiting in the aircraft, and not for waiting in the terminal.
As far as EASA-land is concerned, the definition of flight time is stated in Regulation (EU) 1178/2011:
The flight crew is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its occupants whenever the aircraft is in motion. It is a mystery to me why, in the current risk-averse era, the military does not share this view and record flight time in the same manner. differently.
"Flight time":
for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
for helicopters, it means the total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped;
for airships, it means the total time from the moment an airship is released from the mast for the purpose of taking off until the moment the airship finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and is secured on the mast;
for sailplanes, it means the total time from the moment the sailplane commences the ground run in the process of taking off until the moment the sailplane finally comes to a rest at the end of flight;
for balloons, it means the total time from the moment the basket leaves the ground for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to a rest at the end of the flight.
for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
for helicopters, it means the total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped;
for airships, it means the total time from the moment an airship is released from the mast for the purpose of taking off until the moment the airship finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and is secured on the mast;
for sailplanes, it means the total time from the moment the sailplane commences the ground run in the process of taking off until the moment the sailplane finally comes to a rest at the end of flight;
for balloons, it means the total time from the moment the basket leaves the ground for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to a rest at the end of the flight.
I have to say, I can't see much point in being different. I've had plenty of trips where the easiest and least stressful part was the bit that lay between the take off and the landing.
I've never been very good at taxiing though..........
I've never been very good at taxiing though..........
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Where is/was it laid down what time to enter?
I know it said aircrew in flying appointments are to complete a monthly summary. Did that also specify times?
The other oddity in annual reports was only to record time on type and not breakdown in types. I suspect little difference for a pilot on Nimrod 1or 2 but a whole different ball game for a Mk 2.
On a Vulcan they were both very different, 1, 1a, 2, 2 BS.
Was this a hang over from the earlier types where the changes were minor?
I know it said aircrew in flying appointments are to complete a monthly summary. Did that also specify times?
The other oddity in annual reports was only to record time on type and not breakdown in types. I suspect little difference for a pilot on Nimrod 1or 2 but a whole different ball game for a Mk 2.
On a Vulcan they were both very different, 1, 1a, 2, 2 BS.
Was this a hang over from the earlier types where the changes were minor?
Guest
Posts: n/a
oxenos (your #3),
Always chock-to-chock. (Have a taxying accident, and you'll soon find whether you were flying or not !)
Danny.
Certainly pre-dates '73. It was thus when I joined, but I am a youngster (joined '60)
Ask Danny42C
Ask Danny42C
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 2nd Dec 2015 at 19:41. Reason: Typo.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
So, chock to chock on a QRA readiness, or a taxi-scramble, or a runway abort.
If we have a vote, I'll go with Danny. As a GE all my planning was based on a chocks time. That being the case I would have thought that that was the appropriate point for the "gentlemen up front" to commence their stopwatches. Me? I only logged hours in my GE hammock, it started immediately after my AA breakfast, in the climb out.
Smudge
Smudge
Guest
Posts: n/a
oxenos,
So Danny was logging chock to chock during the war, and by '60 we were logging take-off to landing. When between '45 and '60 did it change?,,
I was grounded in '54, but we were all choc-to-chocking till then. Mind you, on a s/e sqdn, there was never much taxying, we just jotted a rough time in our log books, Flight Commanders never questioned it, but signed willy-nilly at the end of the month.
They were more happy-go-lucky days then. Danny.
So Danny was logging chock to chock during the war, and by '60 we were logging take-off to landing. When between '45 and '60 did it change?,,
They were more happy-go-lucky days then. Danny.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 66
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Crikey ... I didn't think that such a seemingly trivial question would prompt so many responses 
PN ...
To answer your question as far as I'm able ... I'm sure that JSP318 (MOD Flying Orders) would have mandated the protocol. I don't believe that doc exists today and has been superseded by MAA Regulations ... which appear to allow Public Access.
MAA Regulatory Article 2401
Regulation 2041 (3) : Para 14 excerpt ...
There's a lot of other 'fun stuff' on the above URL ... if you're interested 
So ... With Danny's input ... something caused a change in protocol between '54 to '60.
Pure speculation on my behalf ... Could it have been something to do with Engineering ? Only accounting for Hours under Flight Loads prior to Fatigue Meters ?
Interesting ...
Coff.
PN ...
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Where is/was it laid down what time to enter ?
MAA Regulatory Article 2401
Regulation 2041 (3) : Para 14 excerpt ...
Calculation of Flying Times. Flying times will normally be calculated from the time of take-off to the time of landing. When undertaking circuits and landings, the flying times will be reckoned as the time from the initial take-off to the final landing. For the purposes of recording night flying, 'night' is defined as the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight.
So ... With Danny's input ... something caused a change in protocol between '54 to '60.
Pure speculation on my behalf ... Could it have been something to do with Engineering ? Only accounting for Hours under Flight Loads prior to Fatigue Meters ?
Interesting ...
Coff.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is very interesting. Apologies for the slight thread creep but in the UK civilian training industry, whilst engaged in training for professional licences at least, the CAA allowed takeoff to landing plus 15 mins in my day, however these days the greater proportion of training for UK issued EASA integrated CPL/IR's is conducted in the U.S.A where the practice is to log Hobbs (effectively engine start to shutdown). I've seen cases where students end up logging a 1 hour sortie of which 45 mins was spent on the ground - and this on a course of training costing the student around £100K!
Is it the case now that EASA allow the total chocks-off/on time to be logged for training as well? I always felt the CAA approach was fair and quite sensible in limiting the amount of taxy time that could be credited towards each lesson but couldn't understand why the apparent shortfall in actual flying time was never commented on during the annual audit inspections at the various UK approved fairweather facilities I spent time at in the U.S. In principal, cadets were being seriously shortchanged at some of the airports we were based at, where significant taxying was required for every sortie and where you were frequently held for instrument inbounds etc.
Is it the case now that EASA allow the total chocks-off/on time to be logged for training as well? I always felt the CAA approach was fair and quite sensible in limiting the amount of taxy time that could be credited towards each lesson but couldn't understand why the apparent shortfall in actual flying time was never commented on during the annual audit inspections at the various UK approved fairweather facilities I spent time at in the U.S. In principal, cadets were being seriously shortchanged at some of the airports we were based at, where significant taxying was required for every sortie and where you were frequently held for instrument inbounds etc.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Coff, of course when i started, and Danny too I imagine, it was AMFO, a pleasing slim volume on Quatto format.