SDSR rumours.
Leeming is the place for expansion. Established, under-used, (lots of) room for expansion, central UK. Would be a great place for another 2 Sqdn's of Typhoon and... with a simple expansion to 10,000x200 runway and a large apron, it could be the bolt-hole/second iron in the fire for Brize!!!!
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OAP
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I've tried to keep abreast of this debate today and I'm now calling it a night. I'm very wary of Cameron.Some of you are simply swallowing this talk like a gannet fishing in an aquarium. The man has previous on defence, and my honest interpretation of him is he isn't very good at it.
Be wary of him and his intentions. He's had some tough weeks on terrorism, policy and very much on our economy. He is trying to spin out some good intentions. This latest review strikes me as very much cuffed, the way it is penned together. Its very spun.
But please be wary of him. And remember - its your country, your money-not his.
Goodnight.
Be wary of him and his intentions. He's had some tough weeks on terrorism, policy and very much on our economy. He is trying to spin out some good intentions. This latest review strikes me as very much cuffed, the way it is penned together. Its very spun.
But please be wary of him. And remember - its your country, your money-not his.
Goodnight.
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I knew it was only a matter of time before the cynicism of Pprune took hold! The thing I find interesting is that all these plans have been made on an assumption of a flat budget after 2020, so the potential exists for a solid sdsr in 2020 if the 2% commitment is extended to 2025 or further.
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Just remember this is the individual who has stated that F-35 will safeguard 4,500 local jobs....
Or did he????
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...ast-of-england
F-35 squadron numbers - I read the announcement as indicating that there will be two front-line squadrons. Since we already knew that 809 NAS was going to be the OCU, with 617 Sqn the first front-line unit, I think that the speculation over 801 NAS's reappearance is pretty sound. Shame it will be so far away (post-SDSR20!)
As to the number of Typhoon squadrons increasing, this really isn't difficult to understand. Previous plan was to stay at 5 with all the Tranche 1 jets retiring and being replaced by Tranche 3, giving a 5-sqn force of mixed Tranche 2/3 aircraft. New plan is to have 7 sqns, an increase of 2 as announced, by retaining the Tranche 1 aircraft in service. Next question will be how those are mixed in - my money would be on a few of them per sqn for use on QRA and in-house red air. Speculation of a dedicated Typhoon aggressor unit seems a bit, well, aggressive!
All in, a good day for the RAF. On one level, it can be argued that it was a deserved correction to ~15 years of incremental shift towards a land-centric force, which was always an anomaly considering our status as an island trading nation. Therefore I am reluctant to paint this as 'glorious victory', more just an outbreak of common sense!
As to the number of Typhoon squadrons increasing, this really isn't difficult to understand. Previous plan was to stay at 5 with all the Tranche 1 jets retiring and being replaced by Tranche 3, giving a 5-sqn force of mixed Tranche 2/3 aircraft. New plan is to have 7 sqns, an increase of 2 as announced, by retaining the Tranche 1 aircraft in service. Next question will be how those are mixed in - my money would be on a few of them per sqn for use on QRA and in-house red air. Speculation of a dedicated Typhoon aggressor unit seems a bit, well, aggressive!
All in, a good day for the RAF. On one level, it can be argued that it was a deserved correction to ~15 years of incremental shift towards a land-centric force, which was always an anomaly considering our status as an island trading nation. Therefore I am reluctant to paint this as 'glorious victory', more just an outbreak of common sense!
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In fact house prices in Downham Market and the fens are very affordable. Head South to Ely or North to Burnham and the North coast and that is a very different story.
The rest is pretty accurate.
Heathrow Harry #194,
Sorry, a bit late to the ball on this;
" A recapitalised air transport fleet to enable our Armed Forces to intervene globally at speed. By 2016, we will have 14 Voyager air-to-air refuelling aircraft. Our 22 new A400M Atlas heavy-lift aircraft will enhance our global reach, alongside our eight C17 aircraft. We will upgrade and extend the life of our C130J aircraft, allowing them to support a range of operations until 2030."
Interesting on the C130J, which I believed were all to be retired, to allow room for the mighty Atlas, and increased Voyager fleet. Is BZN capable of supporting all of these aircraft ? Having seen Lyneham from the air recently, I suspect there's no going back in that direction. Anyone any thoughts ?
Smudge
Sorry, a bit late to the ball on this;
" A recapitalised air transport fleet to enable our Armed Forces to intervene globally at speed. By 2016, we will have 14 Voyager air-to-air refuelling aircraft. Our 22 new A400M Atlas heavy-lift aircraft will enhance our global reach, alongside our eight C17 aircraft. We will upgrade and extend the life of our C130J aircraft, allowing them to support a range of operations until 2030."
Interesting on the C130J, which I believed were all to be retired, to allow room for the mighty Atlas, and increased Voyager fleet. Is BZN capable of supporting all of these aircraft ? Having seen Lyneham from the air recently, I suspect there's no going back in that direction. Anyone any thoughts ?
Smudge
Lord Dannett's take on itis interesting.
SDSR: Lord Dannatt's reaction
The Former Chief of the General Staff salutes "an honest attempted to rectify a past error"
I generally welcome what the Government has done. I think the commitment to two additional squadrons of Typhoon and F35 vertical take off fighter jets recognises the medium- to long-term pressure that the RAF is under. That on top of the The Boeing P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft will significantly boost not only our capability at sea but also our [submarine borne] nuclear deterrent.
As for Land Forces, I particularly welcome the introduction of two new strike brigades, along with kit and vehicles. The only sad thing is that we could have had these 10 years ago. But the additional cash then went into the aircraft carrier programme. The problem is that the decision to go for the carrier – whose cost has now doubled from £3.5bn to £6bn – has run the risk of creating the wrong type of Navy, with the wrong type of craft.
This is an island nation with a history of needing to protect trading routes all over the world. What we have had is a situation where we were equipped with very advanced warships, but only a few of them. So as far as the Navy is concerned, the decision to go down from 13 to 8 Type 26 frigates is a realisation of the very high cost of these particular advanced craft. To patrol the Indian Ocean or the coast off West Africa you need something relatively cheap and cheerful – and more of them.
When it comes to cyber warfare, the important thing is that we are always trying to adapt. For the rank and file, cyber will matter less – the really important thing is that our intelligence and surveillance capabilities are up there with the best.
But there will be costs. We will see a reduction in the civil service and backroom staff. And what hasn’t been discussed today are the terms of service – particularly for those in the Army. The concern is that those people serving won’t have the same security they have had in the past, such as incremental pay rises which have been part and parcel of service. One waits and wonders and hopes that terms of service, when they are announced, possibly on Wednesday as part of the spending review, prove an incentive not a barrier to recruitment.
The world looked very different at the time of the last spending review in 2010. Frankly, we hoped then that the world would become more secure – and that has turned out not to be the case. Today’s SDSR is an honest attempt to rectify that error.
The Former Chief of the General Staff salutes "an honest attempted to rectify a past error"
I generally welcome what the Government has done. I think the commitment to two additional squadrons of Typhoon and F35 vertical take off fighter jets recognises the medium- to long-term pressure that the RAF is under. That on top of the The Boeing P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft will significantly boost not only our capability at sea but also our [submarine borne] nuclear deterrent.
As for Land Forces, I particularly welcome the introduction of two new strike brigades, along with kit and vehicles. The only sad thing is that we could have had these 10 years ago. But the additional cash then went into the aircraft carrier programme. The problem is that the decision to go for the carrier – whose cost has now doubled from £3.5bn to £6bn – has run the risk of creating the wrong type of Navy, with the wrong type of craft.
This is an island nation with a history of needing to protect trading routes all over the world. What we have had is a situation where we were equipped with very advanced warships, but only a few of them. So as far as the Navy is concerned, the decision to go down from 13 to 8 Type 26 frigates is a realisation of the very high cost of these particular advanced craft. To patrol the Indian Ocean or the coast off West Africa you need something relatively cheap and cheerful – and more of them.
When it comes to cyber warfare, the important thing is that we are always trying to adapt. For the rank and file, cyber will matter less – the really important thing is that our intelligence and surveillance capabilities are up there with the best.
But there will be costs. We will see a reduction in the civil service and backroom staff. And what hasn’t been discussed today are the terms of service – particularly for those in the Army. The concern is that those people serving won’t have the same security they have had in the past, such as incremental pay rises which have been part and parcel of service. One waits and wonders and hopes that terms of service, when they are announced, possibly on Wednesday as part of the spending review, prove an incentive not a barrier to recruitment.
The world looked very different at the time of the last spending review in 2010. Frankly, we hoped then that the world would become more secure – and that has turned out not to be the case. Today’s SDSR is an honest attempt to rectify that error.
Anyone know how the business case stacks up for the P-8 vs what carrying on with MRA4 would have cost?
I know it had a few technical issues to resolve, but most of the £4Bn MRA4 acquisition was done & sunk, and mainly support costs lay ahead.
Now the 9 x P8 buy will face ~£2Bn acquisition all over again PLUS the support and what I assume will be new infra cost. That will be a lot. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just keep going with MRA4? Looks like you could have run the nearly finished MRA4 for 10-15 years for what we're about the spend on just buying P-8. Was it just knee jerk 'blame the last lot' politics?
Woodford must feel a bit sick. Last UK aerospace whole aircraft production capability closed for what - a 5 year payment holiday?
It maybe possible to show that carrying on would have been cheaper long term - and the money to borrow to do it was probably buttons. Sad for UK engineering.
I know it had a few technical issues to resolve, but most of the £4Bn MRA4 acquisition was done & sunk, and mainly support costs lay ahead.
Now the 9 x P8 buy will face ~£2Bn acquisition all over again PLUS the support and what I assume will be new infra cost. That will be a lot. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just keep going with MRA4? Looks like you could have run the nearly finished MRA4 for 10-15 years for what we're about the spend on just buying P-8. Was it just knee jerk 'blame the last lot' politics?
Woodford must feel a bit sick. Last UK aerospace whole aircraft production capability closed for what - a 5 year payment holiday?
It maybe possible to show that carrying on would have been cheaper long term - and the money to borrow to do it was probably buttons. Sad for UK engineering.
F-35 squadron numbers - I read the announcement as indicating that there will be two front-line squadrons. Since we already knew that 809 NAS was going to be the OCU, with 617 Sqn the first front-line unit, I think that the speculation over 801 NAS's reappearance is pretty sound. Shame it will be so far away (post-SDSR20!)
!
!
Not that it will probably affect many on here, but now only OOAs planned to be over 6 months will attract RnR. Standard 6 month or less dets won't.
Another little kick in the TCOS that's been slipped in under the radar.
Another little kick in the TCOS that's been slipped in under the radar.
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For a start this is just my opinion as a 17 year old cadet so feel free to correct me where necessary 
But regarding where the 2 new Typhoon sqns will be based, would basing at Boscombe Down be a possibility? It's already down to be a QRA base should the situation require it and there is certainly an RAF FJ absence south of Lincolnshire! As the QRA requirements would imply, its got plenty of HAS', two huge runways and I'm presuming all the other infrastructure that would be required.
Cheers, Tom
But regarding where the 2 new Typhoon sqns will be based, would basing at Boscombe Down be a possibility? It's already down to be a QRA base should the situation require it and there is certainly an RAF FJ absence south of Lincolnshire! As the QRA requirements would imply, its got plenty of HAS', two huge runways and I'm presuming all the other infrastructure that would be required.Cheers, Tom
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
We will upgrade and extend the life of our C130J aircraft, allowing them to support a range of operations until 2030."
A-400M is a bit big for tactical SF Ops anyway. Not saying C-130 is expendable rather than strategic, but........
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So far there seems to be a positive reaction to the equipment proposals but downsizer raises a vital point; what further changes to TCoS? All the shiny toys will be window dressing if there's no one to operate/maintain/support them. I saw nothing in the main document so would anybody like to take a guess?
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Shuffling feet
With the RN getting 400 of the 700 new posts, that leaves 300 new posts for the RAF. So 300 to cover:
two typhoon squadrons
an entire MPA force (minus seedcorn)
2x C-130J squadrons that have been extended
Sentinel and shadow squadron folks - largely temp posts
All the RPAS guys (more than you think) - lots of temp posts
and that's not including GR4 not drawing down as planned and f-35 stuff.
I don't see any significant force reductions or fleet retirements to compensate for this?
Me thinks some internal A1 work is required...
Damn good day for the RAF mind.
two typhoon squadrons
an entire MPA force (minus seedcorn)
2x C-130J squadrons that have been extended
Sentinel and shadow squadron folks - largely temp posts
All the RPAS guys (more than you think) - lots of temp posts
and that's not including GR4 not drawing down as planned and f-35 stuff.
I don't see any significant force reductions or fleet retirements to compensate for this?
Me thinks some internal A1 work is required...
Damn good day for the RAF mind.