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RAF Instructors - steely eyed or gentle and supportive ?

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RAF Instructors - steely eyed or gentle and supportive ?

Old 27th Oct 2015, 12:24
  #161 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West Sussex
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
Quietplease wrote:

Why on earth would you ever need to do that? Distracting your student during close formation and taking your own hand away from the controls seems bŁoody stupid to me.
Because he is looking the wrong way, stupid.
Don't you even read what you are criticising?
What are your hands doing on the controls when the stude is flying?
22000 posts. Must be an expert on everything.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 12:49
  #162 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
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Well, that comment pretty well sums up everything which was wrong about flying training back then....

You have your hand near, but not 'on' the controls - and emphatically not being used to assault your student.

Why was he 'looking the wrong way'? Poorly briefed, perhaps?

Take control, remind him of the correct technique, get him to follow you through, then give him control.

Resorting to 'tapping' him on the bone dome marks you out as having failed to have briefed him correctly in the first place. I am also reminded of this piece of your so-called 'instructional technique':

We were doing spinning in a JP4. The first action for spin recovery was to check the turn needle before applying opposite rudder (copes with the inverted spin case). On the fifth very good recovery when the student had yet again not done that, I leant over, and jabbing the T&S at every word said "Look at the f***ing turn needle" At this point the glass broke jamming the needle hard over. He never forgot again. Not an approved CFS IT method.

As for your personal abuse towards me, perhaps you should re-familiarise yourself with the PPRuNe Ts&Cs....
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 14:06
  #163 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
You have your hand near, but not 'on' the controls
Reminds me of one QFI, loved the Gnat, stude couldn't see how nervous he was. On the JP he had to relax and present an air of quiet confidence.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 15:17
  #164 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
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As I recall the first action in an academic spin recovery is to check altitude followed by power followed by turn needle and then rudder. But then my mind does play tricks on me.

But I do recall that good instruction starts with a well flown demonstration of the correct technique: anything other causes confusion since the student will have had a mass brief on the correct way of doing things and will not be expecting something that differs from his pre flight study and briefing. Perhaps that could have been a contributory reason this student had not been checking his turn needle. Not that I agree that there are no bad students, just bad instructor: in my experience both exist.

Last edited by beardy; 27th Oct 2015 at 15:35.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 15:54
  #165 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
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Best piece if advice I had when a CFS(H) stude (which I subsequently passed on to my CFS(H) studes) was:

No student replication of your demonstrations will be more accurate than that of your behaviour on the ground!
Supposedly dates from the 1920s or 30s - and it's very true!
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 16:31
  #166 (permalink)  
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Would any of you experienced instructors like to comment on the Side-by- Side versus Tandem seating discussion?
As a student I found that the visible presence of an instructor in my right peripheral vision tended to occupy too large a part of my scan ( Am I doing it right ? What is he thinking?. Where are his hands?, What is he looking at?) )
Tandem was a voice and an input on the controls. Much less intrusive and an aid ,in my case, to building confidence.
But that was just my experience.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 17:21
  #167 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Tandem in the Gnat was voice, input on the controls and a nav ruler in the neck.......
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 17:30
  #168 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Question Nav course

Good evening Pontius. What nav course were you on
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 17:41
  #169 (permalink)  
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Navstar, the meaning of life.


In fact I did a fair number of courses #42, just the way it went.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 18:53
  #170 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
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comment on the Side-by-Side versus Tandem seating
QWI here, so not as directly relevant from an instructional point-of-view...

As a student, moving from the JP to the Hawk was a revelation and, like you, I loved the tandem set-up; it set you free. That said, a lot of my dislike of the JP depended upon whom I was flying with - the difference between the ex-Shack/V-force co-pilots and ex-FJ guys was very noticeable in my time. It wasn't their fault - with hindsight it became clear that they had not had that much stick-time themselves, regardless of instructional ability.

Then, Hawk TWU back to Lightning Training Flight. This could reasonably be described as hilarious (both bad and good), especially since on my course the 2-seater undercarriage collapsed on landing after the conversion phase and we did the rest of the course chased in the single-seater - which was wonderful. Then the engineers fixed all the Tubs just in time for the end of the course - literally the last 3 or 4 sorties - and that turned into a deeply miserable time! As we used to say, the best use of the T5 would have been to crash it into the simulator...then everyone would have been happy.

The T5 was a real dog's breakfast what with the reversed controls in the right-hand seat (albeit very funny when watching someone else tanking) and the fact that, if you were flying with anyone normal-sized, you had to get out of each other's way to move the stick. Check-rides were obviously stilted with blokes trying to pretend they weren't watching you when, of course, they were glued to your every move. Can't say I liked it, but it did make for a great experience for the passengers.

I instructed (tandem) both two-seat and single-seat at the sqn and OCU-level as a QWI and IP and would say that it made for a much better student experience for all the reasons described. In the USMC, we also taught an awful lot of the course (both WSOs and pilots and both 2-seat and single-seat courses) from the other jet, which was even better. I preferred to allow the 2-seat students - and, as a flt cdr, the junior front-line crews - to fly together, since they learned much more from the experience and did not suffer the decision-making gradient inevitable when a more experienced mate is in the jet. Not all the then-sqn cdrs agreed, but that was more a reflection of their risk aversion than the students'/crews' performance.

At the level I instructed, I never felt the need to watch the student's each and every move from beside or behind him. Indeed, from the comms discipline, formation-keeping, lookout and fuel calls you could tell exactly where he was looking, where his hands were and even what he was thinking without being in the same jet.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 19:57
  #171 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Knole Somerset
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See pm as not really of any interest to all the Navs out there!!
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 21:35
  #172 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
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And now the RAF gets trained by the Royal Navy.
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