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Bent airframes

Old 15th Oct 2015, 22:23
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Surprised no ones mentioned XR809, the VC10 used for testing the RB 211.
Twisted by the uneven power, then filled with concrete by the pongoes I believe, they also rumour has it destroyed the RAF's electric engine winches, hence the reliance on the hand ones.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 01:01
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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It would have looked interesting with another RB211 on the other side if they could have sorted out that thrust reverser problem and increased the power.
Having said that, the four Conways did make it look like something out of Thunderbirds - complete with that T-tail.
A great jet...
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 05:21
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Can not remember the serial but on 226 OCU in the early 80's Jaguar T2 Tail letter "T" was disliked by the staff pilots, as it flew "funny." I remember well the bribery that used to occur by one or two who went beyond moaning about her, and simply tried to avoid her at all costs, but then again I always have been partial to Mars bars.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 12:32
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I too am surprised no one has mentioned the infamous Lockheed P3B Orion that was acquired by the RAAF, an ex flying testbed, as a replacement airframe for the brand new P3B that crashed at the Moffat Field US Navy base back in 1968, during its acceptance flights. It crash landed while attempting a touch-and-go and the port side MLG axle/brakes and wheels separated, and in doing so severely damaged the underside of the wing, it ground-looped and stopped still on the runway and was destroyed by fire, everybody escaped. (It was later found to be a OEM fault with the MLG oleo strut, hence the replacement airframe).
It was an older airframe in every way, and for it's entire career with the RAAF, it never flew straight, though the problem was investigated several times!
It was the infamous 154605.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 14:06
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Every Victor had it's own personality. They were all individual, to the point you couldn't swap many of the airframe components as they were mostly made to measure for that particular airframe.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 14:51
  #46 (permalink)  
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Hand-fettled aeroplanes

I did wonder about that.

I often muse on the scene from one the 'Dollars' films - the Spaghetti Westerns - where the man with no name goes into a gunsmiths and fiddles with (Colt?) revolver components, fitting them and spinning them, until he finds a set where the manufacturing tolerances have lined up in favourable coincidence. IIRC he then holds up the shopkeeper with it in lieu of payment....

I suppose this might be seen as a reversed parody of some defence acquisitions?

As I used to say in lecturing days: Discuss.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 15:23
  #47 (permalink)  
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Morrisman, unlikely as the US had mass production at the Springfield Armouryhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory though I suppose it might have been pre-mass production.

Dan, BAE learnt the bespoke nature of Sir Frederick' s finest when they won the contract to convert the Victor 2 to the tanker role. They took the first wing off and used it as a template to create 24 ship sets. When the first of these was offered to the second aircraft it didn't fit.

The original build had had just four master bolts with the rest drilled using semi-skilled Labour.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 16:29
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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TTN:
Instead of flying straight and level, Victor K1 XA 930 tended to fly in a very slow corkscrew which was detectable through the seat of your pants in the back seats. The aircraft had at one time been in the hands of either Boscombe Down or Farnborough, I forget which, and rumour had it that it had once been barrel rolled. Whatever the reason it was definitely "bent"!
Probably this one then...

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Old 16th Oct 2015, 16:46
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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When on 1 Sqn in the mid/late 60s, we got an ex Boscombe Down FGA9, XF442. It was a real gas guzzler, we soon found, to the extent that it was almost always programmed as a formation leader's aircraft. We never found out why; engine changes made no difference, and all the rigging seemed OK. Apart from the guzzling, it flew well - and, oh yes, after April 68 it had a small replica of Tower Bridge stencilled just below the port cockpit rail. It followed me out to 8 Sqn and was still a gas guzzler, maybe 5% more than the others.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 19:27
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GeeRam,


re your post No 21, I doubt if WF742 ever flew again after I delivered it as that trip was on 24th Nov 1955 and what with Christmas and New Year etc. probably the Aston Down mob took the easy option to the problem.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 19:39
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morrisman68
I often muse on the scene from one the 'Dollars' films - the Spaghetti Westerns - where the man with no name goes into a gunsmiths and fiddles with (Colt?) revolver components, fitting them and spinning them, until he finds a set where the manufacturing tolerances have lined up in favourable coincidence. IIRC he then holds up the shopkeeper with it in lieu of payment....
I spent many 'happy' hours, as a non-professional armourer, swapping and/or polishing small parts in HM's 9mm Browning pistols to enhance their 'shoot-ability' for the RAF Team. (I was taught by a proper Armourer).

Whether it's 0.1mm or 0.1cm or whatever, it can make a massive difference when all the other components are involved.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 19:46
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
I spent many 'happy' hours, as a non-professional armourer, swapping and/or polishing small parts in HM's 9mm Browning pistols to enhance their 'shoot-ability' for the RAF Team. (I was taught by a proper Armourer).

Whether it's 0.1mm or 0.1cm or whatever, it can make a massive difference when all the other components are involved.
Totally agree - I had a works "blueprinted" Kawasaki GPZ 750 and a standard "off-the-shelf" version at one time. While nominally identical the performance difference was more than noticeable. The bluepinted 750 could even give the bigger 900R a run for its money
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 21:08
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XZ585, the RAF Sea King destined for the RAF Museum, was the aircraft that crashed in Creag Meagaidh in 1988 during the filming of the Rescue series after suffering an engine failure at a critical stage in the approach. Thought to be a write-off 585 was subsequently rebuilt and carried on to fly many more hours at Lossie although some did say it flew like a banana.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 23:00
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XV222 never failed to provide an extra night stop or three down route. I believe that the aircraft was once banned from anything other than local flying due to its reliability in failure. Tremblers was an aircraft that to this day has a place of reverence in many an aircrew wallet.

Smudge
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Old 17th Oct 2015, 00:36
  #55 (permalink)  
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Devil News on Gremlin Front.

Pontius Navigator,

Please see the EDIT to my Post #40 (I should have made it clear from the outset !) D.

------------------------

Smudge (your #37),

Trouble is: the Gremlin is INSIDE the accursed "Climate Control", and on a hot day will suddenly turn loose all the fires of Hell. Coversely on a freezing day will put on air-con to make things worse. We were much better off with three round knobs as in days of yore.

Had system fluid just replaced, not sure whether fixed or not yet. Meanwhile laptop stays in house, as at least I know where gremlin is for the moment (and I stay by the fireside most of the time, anyway !)...D.

Cheers, both, Danny.
 
Old 17th Oct 2015, 07:48
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Slightly off topic, but never mind. There are stories (possibily of the salty sea dog variety) about RN vessels that didn't sail straight.

There was a T42 that got severely damaged in a collision with a fleet auxilliary. It got T-barred after the post RAS break off manoeuvre (which the captain intended to be a showy, racey departure) went wrong. Rather than scrap it (they'd never get a replacement paid for by Treasury) the RN had it repaired, but apparently it was never quite the same again.

There was also apparently a Leander class frigate that got bent during high speed bomb dodging manoeuvres in San Carlos Water in the Falklands. With it being a war they'd been allowed to disable the engine governors, and those steam plants had a lot of excess power. Moving a ship at high speed in shallow water puts a tremendous load on the hull due to the powerful venturi effect with the sea bed, and even stranger things happen in high speed turns. Better a bent ship than a bomb coming through the sides. I got this off a friend who'd been on it at the time.

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Old 17th Oct 2015, 10:09
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Dan, BAE learnt the bespoke nature of Sir Frederick' s finest when they won the contract to convert the Victor 2 to the tanker role. They took the first wing off and used it as a template to create 24 ship sets. When the first of these was offered to the second aircraft it didn't fit.
Must've been expensive. I guess UK industry learned from that mistake because it hasn't happened again since has it?
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Old 17th Oct 2015, 12:47
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Wasn't there a story that when Ford were brought into aircraft manufacturing during WW2, they initially said "We can't work this way". Not that it was too complicated but that the tolerances were too great and every aircraft had to be individually "fettled", rather than just bolted together.
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Old 17th Oct 2015, 12:58
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They took the first wing off and used it as a template to create 24 ship sets. When the first of these was offered to the second aircraft it didn't fit.
I heard a similar story in regard to the Nimrod MRA4, which was of course many years later.

Also, surprised no-one has yet mentioned that (in)famous TriStar ZE705. I heard of its reputation whilst witnessing it undergoing an engine change in ASI. Not bent, but a reputation for causing frequent delays on the SA Airbridge in those days.
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Old 17th Oct 2015, 21:27
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Wasn't there a story that when Ford were brought into aircraft manufacturing during WW2,
Wasn't this when Fords built and operated a factory to build RR Merlin engines?

RR used and needed skilled fitters to 'fit' each part, and Ford built them with un-skilled labour.
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