American Hurricane comes a cropper
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American Hurricane comes a cropper
It also did a similar incident a couple of months ago when it lost a wheel.
Hawker Hurricane Suffers Landing Accident At Paine Field [Video] ? WW2 Aero ? WW2 Aviation News and Resources
Hawker Hurricane Suffers Landing Accident At Paine Field [Video] ? WW2 Aero ? WW2 Aviation News and Resources
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nutty, according to the comments this clip was 25 Jul, or a couple of months ago.
Gusting 20 kts 20 degrees from the right. He obviously knew he had a problem as he called for fire trucks before he landed.
Contrary to the comments, it appears to me to be a locked wheel which caused the aircraft to tip forward before the tyre detached and the hub sparked as it did.
Very casual evacuation, sorry shut down and egress, and very casual reaction by the fire trucks. They were possibly at the far end of the runway where a heavy might have finished up rather than a light prop.
Gusting 20 kts 20 degrees from the right. He obviously knew he had a problem as he called for fire trucks before he landed.
Contrary to the comments, it appears to me to be a locked wheel which caused the aircraft to tip forward before the tyre detached and the hub sparked as it did.
Very casual evacuation, sorry shut down and egress, and very casual reaction by the fire trucks. They were possibly at the far end of the runway where a heavy might have finished up rather than a light prop.
Interesting that he asked to have crash crews standing by while he was on the approach. Suggests he knew there was a problem. Later aircraft with pneumatic brakes had a triple pressure gauge, which would tell if there was still pressure to a brake when there should not be.
Looking at Hurricane cockpits on giggle does not show a triple pressure gauge, but this particular aircraft may have one.
Looking at Hurricane cockpits on giggle does not show a triple pressure gauge, but this particular aircraft may have one.
I'm continually surprised that it seems to have become the norm in recent years for tailwheel aircraft to be landed in the 'two pointer' position instead of the 'three pointer' technique we used for everything from Chipmunk to Shackleton (as I also did in the Mustang). Even the Mosquito does it - a Mosquito veteran I was with commented that he would soon come a cropper landing like that! If that had been a three pointer it is unlikely he would have had what looks like a prop strike as well, although the wheel would probably suffered the same fate.
However, back to my original observation, is there a reason for this?
However, back to my original observation, is there a reason for this?
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PN
This one was on
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=180244
???
Shackman, no, just interest,
This one was on
Date: 06-OCT-2015
Time:
Type: Hawker Hurricane XIIA
Owner/operator: Flying Heritage Collection
Registration: NX54FH
C/n / msn: CCF/R32007
Fatalities: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities: 0
Airplane damage: Minor
Location: Paine Field, WA (PAE) - United States of America
Phase: Landing
Nature: Training
Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Narrative:
Tyre failure on landing
Time:
Type: Hawker Hurricane XIIA
Owner/operator: Flying Heritage Collection
Registration: NX54FH
C/n / msn: CCF/R32007
Fatalities: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities: 0
Airplane damage: Minor
Location: Paine Field, WA (PAE) - United States of America
Phase: Landing
Nature: Training
Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Narrative:
Tyre failure on landing
???
Shackman, no, just interest,
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nutty, now it is clear that the link in your OP was to the first prang and you comment on the second.
melmoth
"Interesting that he asked to have crash crews standing by while he was on the approach. Suggests he knew there was a problem.
You think?"
Do you ask for crash crews to stand by every time you land????
"Interesting that he asked to have crash crews standing by while he was on the approach. Suggests he knew there was a problem.
You think?"
Do you ask for crash crews to stand by every time you land????
"blindingly obvious that the pilot knew he had a problem."
Obviously it was blindingly obvious, which is why I wondered how he would know.
The wheel would not be visible from the cockpit, so what indication would he have? The triple pressure gauge, if fitted, would indicate if a faulty brake valve resulted in pressure to the brake when there should not have been. If such a gauge had not been retro fitted how did he know he had a problem? Had he heard a tyre burst on take off?
Obviously it was blindingly obvious, which is why I wondered how he would know.
The wheel would not be visible from the cockpit, so what indication would he have? The triple pressure gauge, if fitted, would indicate if a faulty brake valve resulted in pressure to the brake when there should not have been. If such a gauge had not been retro fitted how did he know he had a problem? Had he heard a tyre burst on take off?
"blindingly obvious that the pilot knew he had a problem."
Obviously it was blindingly obvious, which is why I wondered how he would know.
The wheel would not be visible from the cockpit, so what indication would he have? The triple pressure gauge, if fitted, would indicate if a faulty brake valve resulted in pressure to the brake when there should not have been. If such a gauge had not been retro fitted how did he know he had a problem? Had he heard a tyre burst on take off?
Obviously it was blindingly obvious, which is why I wondered how he would know.
The wheel would not be visible from the cockpit, so what indication would he have? The triple pressure gauge, if fitted, would indicate if a faulty brake valve resulted in pressure to the brake when there should not have been. If such a gauge had not been retro fitted how did he know he had a problem? Had he heard a tyre burst on take off?
You need to dial your sarcasm filter down a bit, and then maybe some of it will get through...
For your benefit I will rephrase the sentence. INDICATES he knew there was a problem. That better?
Now you play nicely, stop being sarcastic with "you think?", I'll stop being sarcastic with "Do you ask for crash crews to stand by every time you land????" and perhaps we can address the question.
How did he know he had a problem?
Now you play nicely, stop being sarcastic with "you think?", I'll stop being sarcastic with "Do you ask for crash crews to stand by every time you land????" and perhaps we can address the question.
How did he know he had a problem?
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oxenos (your #3),
With only a handful of hours on the Hurricane I at (P) AFU in '42 (after coming back from the States), I am ill qualified to be dogmatic about them, but as I recall they all had triple gauges, as had the Masters and all the Spitfires I subsequently flew. I don't see that anybody in his right mind would move an aircraft with pneumatic brakes an inch unless he knew what air pressure was in the reservoir.
I was amazed by your "....Looking at Hurricane cockpits on giggle does not show a triple pressure gauge, but this particular aircraft may have one." I Googled-up "Hawker Hurricane Pilot's Instrument Panel", selected "Images": the first and third shown do not have any triple-gauge that I can see (down on the left where you would expect it *) or anywhere else.
Moved on to "More Images for...." and got a wealth of pics. But you have to work down until the mock-up "Iflytailies" (Row 8/3) to get a "positive" (in its proper place *). After that we have to wait till Row 14/3 for another mock-up. But nowhere (to my surprise) can I see for certain one in any of the Hurricane (?) panels, tho' there are on or two vaguely "possibles". So you're right !
Then I turned up two links kindly supplied by Chugalug2 on his Post [P.217 #4322] two years ago):
"In commemoration of BoB day, here's the Hurricane PNs, another Hawker classic":
<AP 1564A Hurricane I Aeroplane - Merlin II Engine>
<AP 1564B&D Pilot's Notes Hurricane IIA, IIB, IIC, IID and IV Aircraft - Merlin XX Engine>
(Both from "Avialogs")
A.P.1564A, Vol.1.....Frontispiece.....The Hurricane I Aeroplane - Merlin II Engine...."Page 31 "Starboard side of Cockpit A.P.1564A Vol.1, Secn.1, Fig 4" ....."Item 69 Brakes Triple Pressure Gauge (hiding behind "Item 34 Control Column").
December 1940 AIR PUBLICATION 1564B Pilots Notes: Item 17 Page 7 ".....A triple pressure gauge, showing pressure in the pneumatic system cylinder and at each brake is mounted forward of the foot of the control column....."
It would seem that my recollection is faulty (Notes * above) - the gauge in the Hurricane is not "down on the left", as I had stated, even though that was where it was on all the Spitfires I remember. It may well be that the gauge is "out of shot" on all the pics.
Now as to the incident itself (fools rush in !)
PNs give the speed for landing approach as 90 mph (78 Kts). He had a gusting headwind of 20 kts, 20 degrees off the runway. Why not make it simple, and land on a grass patch into wind (he would only be coming in at little more than Tiger Moth (calm) ground speed, after all, and surely there was that much unobstructed grass somewhere on the field ? If the only reason for requesting crash crew standby was loss of brake air pressure (and do we know that for certain ?), then it shouldn't roll that far on grass, head-butting that wind. He probably wouldn't need brakes at all.
What is done, is done. Yes, ideally all landings in tail-draggers should be "daisy-cutters" (three-pointers), but we are not all perfect and a wheeler is the next best thing. He may have overdone it if he put the nose down enough to clip the prop, but that was nothing to do with the wheel. I'd guess that a sudden side gust hit him just as he was touching down.
And, did he just lose the tyre or the whole wheel ? On "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet..." (p.175, #3486) I tell the tale of a similar incident with a Spitfire long ago (No, not me !).
Danny42C.
With only a handful of hours on the Hurricane I at (P) AFU in '42 (after coming back from the States), I am ill qualified to be dogmatic about them, but as I recall they all had triple gauges, as had the Masters and all the Spitfires I subsequently flew. I don't see that anybody in his right mind would move an aircraft with pneumatic brakes an inch unless he knew what air pressure was in the reservoir.
I was amazed by your "....Looking at Hurricane cockpits on giggle does not show a triple pressure gauge, but this particular aircraft may have one." I Googled-up "Hawker Hurricane Pilot's Instrument Panel", selected "Images": the first and third shown do not have any triple-gauge that I can see (down on the left where you would expect it *) or anywhere else.
Moved on to "More Images for...." and got a wealth of pics. But you have to work down until the mock-up "Iflytailies" (Row 8/3) to get a "positive" (in its proper place *). After that we have to wait till Row 14/3 for another mock-up. But nowhere (to my surprise) can I see for certain one in any of the Hurricane (?) panels, tho' there are on or two vaguely "possibles". So you're right !
Then I turned up two links kindly supplied by Chugalug2 on his Post [P.217 #4322] two years ago):
"In commemoration of BoB day, here's the Hurricane PNs, another Hawker classic":
<AP 1564A Hurricane I Aeroplane - Merlin II Engine>
<AP 1564B&D Pilot's Notes Hurricane IIA, IIB, IIC, IID and IV Aircraft - Merlin XX Engine>
(Both from "Avialogs")
A.P.1564A, Vol.1.....Frontispiece.....The Hurricane I Aeroplane - Merlin II Engine...."Page 31 "Starboard side of Cockpit A.P.1564A Vol.1, Secn.1, Fig 4" ....."Item 69 Brakes Triple Pressure Gauge (hiding behind "Item 34 Control Column").
December 1940 AIR PUBLICATION 1564B Pilots Notes: Item 17 Page 7 ".....A triple pressure gauge, showing pressure in the pneumatic system cylinder and at each brake is mounted forward of the foot of the control column....."
It would seem that my recollection is faulty (Notes * above) - the gauge in the Hurricane is not "down on the left", as I had stated, even though that was where it was on all the Spitfires I remember. It may well be that the gauge is "out of shot" on all the pics.
Now as to the incident itself (fools rush in !)
PNs give the speed for landing approach as 90 mph (78 Kts). He had a gusting headwind of 20 kts, 20 degrees off the runway. Why not make it simple, and land on a grass patch into wind (he would only be coming in at little more than Tiger Moth (calm) ground speed, after all, and surely there was that much unobstructed grass somewhere on the field ? If the only reason for requesting crash crew standby was loss of brake air pressure (and do we know that for certain ?), then it shouldn't roll that far on grass, head-butting that wind. He probably wouldn't need brakes at all.
What is done, is done. Yes, ideally all landings in tail-draggers should be "daisy-cutters" (three-pointers), but we are not all perfect and a wheeler is the next best thing. He may have overdone it if he put the nose down enough to clip the prop, but that was nothing to do with the wheel. I'd guess that a sudden side gust hit him just as he was touching down.
And, did he just lose the tyre or the whole wheel ? On "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet..." (p.175, #3486) I tell the tale of a similar incident with a Spitfire long ago (No, not me !).
Danny42C.
D42C
Immaculate research as always.
I was sure there had to be a T.P.G somewhere. Sneaky of them to hide it behind the base of the control column.
I am still at a loss as to
(a) what caused the tyre to come off the hub. ( Pretty sure it did. Looking at the video in slow motion, and watching the tyre as it rolls along, sometimes you see dark tarmac through the hole in the middle, and sometimes white runway markings. Also, the undercarriage door does not seem to be damaged, suggesting that the hub of the wheel is still in place and holding the door clear of the runway surface.)
(b) What indication the pilot would have had of a problem?
With a loss of brake pressure, landing on the grass would have made sense, but loss of brake pressure seems unlikely to cause the tyre to come off the hub.
If there was residual pressure to the starboard brake, perhaps the tyre burst and then came off the rim, but I would have thought that if the T.P.G. had shown such residual pressure, he would have held the wing up as long as possible, as did your friend with the Spitfire.
Immaculate research as always.
I was sure there had to be a T.P.G somewhere. Sneaky of them to hide it behind the base of the control column.
I am still at a loss as to
(a) what caused the tyre to come off the hub. ( Pretty sure it did. Looking at the video in slow motion, and watching the tyre as it rolls along, sometimes you see dark tarmac through the hole in the middle, and sometimes white runway markings. Also, the undercarriage door does not seem to be damaged, suggesting that the hub of the wheel is still in place and holding the door clear of the runway surface.)
(b) What indication the pilot would have had of a problem?
With a loss of brake pressure, landing on the grass would have made sense, but loss of brake pressure seems unlikely to cause the tyre to come off the hub.
If there was residual pressure to the starboard brake, perhaps the tyre burst and then came off the rim, but I would have thought that if the T.P.G. had shown such residual pressure, he would have held the wing up as long as possible, as did your friend with the Spitfire.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Oxenos, I once had a caravan jockey wheel tyre detatch. The cause was over heating of the tyre rubbing on the ground; the tyre was several sizes larger than before. It might therefore have been friction heating causing rapid expansion of the rubber.
P N
Perhaps, then, it was the brake partly on which caused the overheat, and he would have known that there was residual pressure to that wheel from the gauge. Surprised in that case though, that he did not try and keep that wheel off the ground as long as possible.
Perhaps, then, it was the brake partly on which caused the overheat, and he would have known that there was residual pressure to that wheel from the gauge. Surprised in that case though, that he did not try and keep that wheel off the ground as long as possible.
....I once had a caravan....
Periwinkle blue, was it PN? Did you also keep 'dags' and sell lucky white heather and clothes pegs to gadjé?
Kushti bok......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEagle, why not comment on oxenos question rather than making irrelevant snide remarks for a change.