Who actualy wants a Waddington Airshow to return?
The RAF has always maintained an operational tempo somewhere. I appreciate the gripe about being much smaller now, but not that much surely that everyone everywhere is on a war footing? If indeed that is what you're suggesting.
Without wishing to speak for Camelspyder, we're not far off everyone being operational everywhere. So many of the 'non-operational' posts have either been contractorised, civilianised or just cut, meaning that those that are left are pretty much engaged full time in the business of killing people and breaking their toys or providing direct support to those that are. And given the increasingly Joint nature of things, that could well extend to RAF personnel being operational alongside its sister services in circumstances where the RAF isn't deployed in a major capacity.Add to that the fact that reach back ops are also increaasing, now you don't even need to deploy to kill people and break their toys.
As a set up its lean, almost too lean and there's no fat in the system when you take other commitments like guard, exercises etc on top of ops in to consideration. I started my current job in the spring on the back of a 7 month OOA. What I didn't find out until I'd been there for 2 weeks was that my new boss had to draft a pain & grief statement whilst I was OOA to stop me being deployed again once I got back. And I've had to do similar for some of my juniors since I've been in post, so I don't appear to have been an unusual case.
There's a large element of the RAF that knows nothing other than ops, so I can see why some might be less than enthusiastic about air shows and the likes of Armed Forces Day parade duties.
Well Melchett01, I'd best yank my foot free of my jaws! Just one question, purely observational, I expect I'm correct in imagining the Fleet Air Arm to be similarly involved, if so, how do they manage to still hold their annual events at Culdrose and Yeovilton, unlike the RAF, these are their only two airfields? Don't get me wrong I fully understand how priorities work and of course if the idea of staging anymore airshows, or even participating in others is now generating the same feeling as coming home from a day's work only to be told by your wife that you still haven't cleared the guttering etc, then say no more, but I'm sure you understand the point about the FAA.
FB
FB
FB,
It's definitely a valid question if from an external perspective one wishes to compare the 2 organisations, but my understanding of the FAA - how their stations run and their current tasking and structures - is shall we say, rather slender. I'm sure someone that has better visibility of the FAA can provide a sensible answer!
It's definitely a valid question if from an external perspective one wishes to compare the 2 organisations, but my understanding of the FAA - how their stations run and their current tasking and structures - is shall we say, rather slender. I'm sure someone that has better visibility of the FAA can provide a sensible answer!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
WW, the access improvement at Waddo was for air show access through a farmer's field and track.
One aspect of leaning, fewer people, fewer air shows, has also meant less work believe it or not.
At Cottesmore and Coningsby, 20 years apart, we did all the work including the fod pl.od.
At Finningley, while we did some litter collection, the bulk of the work, fod propellers, tents, barriers was all contracted out.
One aspect of leaning, fewer people, fewer air shows, has also meant less work believe it or not.
At Cottesmore and Coningsby, 20 years apart, we did all the work including the fod pl.od.
At Finningley, while we did some litter collection, the bulk of the work, fod propellers, tents, barriers was all contracted out.
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I know that many old folks on here (myself included) are rightly very proud of what we achieved 30-odd years ago. Even back then I worked in one of the few parts of the RAF that flew 24/7 ops. However, at the time, the majority of the Service didn't. Now though, the Op commitment is far more widespread and harmony guides are often broken; it is probably not such a good time to take on extra work which impacts our Operational output - such as taking huge amounts of manpower to run (and secure) airshows.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CS
While it may only be a lost weekend for everyone a very large number are inevitably mis-employed the preceding week setting up and some the following week.
Then for a fair number their primary job goes on the back burner for days, weeks and even longer.
If you are established at 100%, manned at some level below that, then your effective manning will drop below operationally effective levels. We had one air show at Waddo cancelled (while Finningley was still going) when operations intruded.
It was cancelled sufficiently early that we didn't incur a big loss but if there is a late cancellation who picks up the bill?
While it may only be a lost weekend for everyone a very large number are inevitably mis-employed the preceding week setting up and some the following week.
Then for a fair number their primary job goes on the back burner for days, weeks and even longer.
If you are established at 100%, manned at some level below that, then your effective manning will drop below operationally effective levels. We had one air show at Waddo cancelled (while Finningley was still going) when operations intruded.
It was cancelled sufficiently early that we didn't incur a big loss but if there is a late cancellation who picks up the bill?
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The Air Show picks up the bill and as an organisation they are both insured against total loss and sit on nest eggs sufficiently large to cope.
The worst scenario outside of a flying or indeed other accident, is that aircraft have pre positioned and all is in place before cancellation. This means that the positioning elements of display fees have to be paid, fuel issues completed and HotAc paid for. In other words almost all the overheads of the event without any of the expected income due to refunding. Any event has its business model and Risk Assesment which is why it is an all year round job not a month before and can-do.
The worst scenario outside of a flying or indeed other accident, is that aircraft have pre positioned and all is in place before cancellation. This means that the positioning elements of display fees have to be paid, fuel issues completed and HotAc paid for. In other words almost all the overheads of the event without any of the expected income due to refunding. Any event has its business model and Risk Assesment which is why it is an all year round job not a month before and can-do.
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Oh, and I couldn't give a hoot if station personnel have to work the weekend for an air show or anything else. I did it frequently throughout my 30 years; it's part of the deal.
But having to work a weekend, which came round each year with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season, with an 8-day leave ban in place in order to prevent people taking part in something exponentially more satisfying, was another matter. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if one were given the chance to take every other year's airshow off as leave.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Fuel was often diverted. We had a P51 that arrived with empty drops, refuelled, did a display somewhere else, returned, dropped the tanks, displayed, and then refitted tanks and departed full.
I refused John Watt's Catalina for the same reason - arrive empty, depart full.
My staish also flatly refused to pay Binbrook for T&S, the Reds and Falcons for smokes and refused free entry to their families. TB!
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Having worked many an airshow it's not so much the day itself but all the faff that goes with the runup, too many sticking their oar in to change something just for the sake of it. The worst part is the practice bleeding.
And given the increasingly Joint nature of things, that could well extend to RAF personnel being operational alongside its sister services in circumstances where the RAF isn't deployed in a major capacity.Add to that the fact that reach back ops are also increaasing, now you don't even need to deploy to kill people and break their toys.
As a set up its lean, almost too lean and there's no fat in the system when you take other commitments like guard, exercises etc on top of ops in to consideration. I started my current job in the spring on the back of a 7 month OOA. What I didn't find out until I'd been there for 2 weeks was that my new boss had to draft a pain & grief statement whilst I was OOA to stop me being deployed again once I got back.
As a set up its lean, almost too lean and there's no fat in the system when you take other commitments like guard, exercises etc on top of ops in to consideration. I started my current job in the spring on the back of a 7 month OOA. What I didn't find out until I'd been there for 2 weeks was that my new boss had to draft a pain & grief statement whilst I was OOA to stop me being deployed again once I got back.
Are training units on a war footing? Or is the RAF simply seriously short of established man power!? I was under the impression that the new established level was 35,000 while it has dropped below 32,000, so maybe that's it!
Again, sorry to sound like an old rambling idiot, but in 1965, Transport command were very busy re-supplying Aden and many other places, which, locally, were on a war footing with troops on the ground. Khormaksar looked like Heathrow at times with Argosies, Beverlies, Britannias, Comets and all. But they weren't regarded as being at war, nor the rest of HM Forces not deployed in theatre.
FB
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I think if you check RAF News, Page 2 normally has a map showing where the Service is deployed.
It's a damn sight more locations than Akrotiri holiday village I can tell you.
It's a damn sight more locations than Akrotiri holiday village I can tell you.
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For an organisation such as Finningley/Waddington/Leuchars they usually held back a portion of takings as nest eggs as you say. For a new venue, Waddington/Coningsby the issue was to raise as much revenue for charity through minimizing costs and creative accounting. Insurance, if any, was minimal.
Fuel was often diverted. We had a P51 that arrived with empty drops, refuelled, did a display somewhere else, returned, dropped the tanks, displayed, and then refitted tanks and departed full.
I refused John Watt's Catalina for the same reason - arrive empty, depart full.
My staish also flatly refused to pay Binbrook for T&S, the Reds and Falcons for smokes and refused free entry to their families. TB!
Fuel was often diverted. We had a P51 that arrived with empty drops, refuelled, did a display somewhere else, returned, dropped the tanks, displayed, and then refitted tanks and departed full.
I refused John Watt's Catalina for the same reason - arrive empty, depart full.
My staish also flatly refused to pay Binbrook for T&S, the Reds and Falcons for smokes and refused free entry to their families. TB!
I think if you check RAF News, Page 2 normally has a map showing where the Service is deployed.
It's a damn sight more locations than Akrotiri holiday village I can tell you.
It's a damn sight more locations than Akrotiri holiday village I can tell you.
The RAF as with the other services has always had various less visible deployment locations strewn across the Globe; from Goosebay to Borneo.
But how many of the deployment locations are actually on a 'war footing' and the Baltic states don't count. I'll stick my neck out here, routine deployments to all manner of curious locations across the atlas have always been there, Squadrons have always deployed overseas either on exercises, armaments practice camps, shows of force or just to pop in to say hello but even outside of WWII and Korea, nothing was seen as being at war even if the deployment had a series nature to it. 25 squadron spent most of its being based at leuchars in 1962 over in Germany ready to escort transport aircraft down the Berlin air corridor with all that might result in, the fact we're all still here is because the Soviets who were routinely threatening to close off all access to Berlin, luckily didn't.
FB
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tay, indeed. I got a number of Spitfires and they all came free but with full fuel on arrival for the display and on departure. I can say this now, but Nick Grace flying from Southampton said he would be out of pocket using all his 'free' fuel to get home again. He asked and we gave him is fee - £190!
G-FIRE OTOH was transiting north so was able to come to us on minimums and continue north on free fuel, win-win.
Of course free fuel only works if you have Avgas. For one participant MT had to take a Jerry Can to the local garage for some low octane stuff. I guess unleaded has grounded him.
G-FIRE OTOH was transiting north so was able to come to us on minimums and continue north on free fuel, win-win.
Of course free fuel only works if you have Avgas. For one participant MT had to take a Jerry Can to the local garage for some low octane stuff. I guess unleaded has grounded him.
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Tay, indeed. I got a number of Spitfires and they all came free but with full fuel on arrival for the display and on departure. I can say this now, but Nick Grace flying from Southampton said he would be out of pocket using all his 'free' fuel to get home again. He asked and we gave him is fee - £190!
G-FIRE OTOH was transiting north so was able to come to us on minimums and continue north on free fuel, win-win.
Of course free fuel only works if you have Avgas. For one participant MT had to take a Jerry Can to the local garage for some low octane stuff. I guess unleaded has grounded him.
G-FIRE OTOH was transiting north so was able to come to us on minimums and continue north on free fuel, win-win.
Of course free fuel only works if you have Avgas. For one participant MT had to take a Jerry Can to the local garage for some low octane stuff. I guess unleaded has grounded him.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Squawk, and have rent-a-crowd gathered around wotsername in grow bags. Seeing them once, fine, on every shot, bet they were pressed - your flying suit looks clean, pop over to BBMF for a bit.
I wonder if wotsername got to keep her growbag and gloves. Now that had been at ISK in the old days, knockers would have been all over it trying to buy it.
I wonder if wotsername got to keep her growbag and gloves. Now that had been at ISK in the old days, knockers would have been all over it trying to buy it.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 21st Sep 2015 at 11:06.
Okay Dokay,
To answer the question the thread asks, I wouldn't necessarily like to see the Waddington Airshow per se return. But I would like to see a properly comprehensive RAF airshow, perhaps two or a two day event, of a similar standing to Waddington, or indeed better still, the Belgian Air Force Days as an example, held each September, on the week in which the 15th September falls. I'd be absolutely over the orbiting lump of soil with that!
FB
To answer the question the thread asks, I wouldn't necessarily like to see the Waddington Airshow per se return. But I would like to see a properly comprehensive RAF airshow, perhaps two or a two day event, of a similar standing to Waddington, or indeed better still, the Belgian Air Force Days as an example, held each September, on the week in which the 15th September falls. I'd be absolutely over the orbiting lump of soil with that!
FB