Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow
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Reducing the risk by changing the nature of the display whilst over such areas would seem an obvious avenue?
It would be worth considering. And to quote a description of the maneuver immediately before the Lviv disaster, it involved a "downward trajectory at low altitude". It's not unreasonable to discuss altitude as a contributing factor. As for those randomly passing by vs deliberately attending an airshow, I agree there is a difference, but at the same time, among the spectators killed at Lviv there were 28 children, and one could argue that they neither had an adequate grasp of risks involved nor made an independent decision to attend.
It would be worth considering. And to quote a description of the maneuver immediately before the Lviv disaster, it involved a "downward trajectory at low altitude". It's not unreasonable to discuss altitude as a contributing factor. As for those randomly passing by vs deliberately attending an airshow, I agree there is a difference, but at the same time, among the spectators killed at Lviv there were 28 children, and one could argue that they neither had an adequate grasp of risks involved nor made an independent decision to attend.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Unlike flying incidents that result in a coroner's inquest and an AAIB report, the nature of yesterday's tragedy means it's also likely to generate a public inquiry.
That's where the real debate will occur, and there are bound to be recommendations to the government in its conclusions.
I imagine there's also going to be a full police investigation.
That's where the real debate will occur, and there are bound to be recommendations to the government in its conclusions.
I imagine there's also going to be a full police investigation.
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Tourist, I agree with your points. Banning airshows isn't the answer, IMHO.
Although we definitely should ban cricket. Nobody should have to endure that boring ****e. It's against human rights, surely?
JSF.
Although we definitely should ban cricket. Nobody should have to endure that boring ****e. It's against human rights, surely?
JSF.
Pontius,
Indeed, but I think Satellite Driver's wise words an hour or so back are worth heeding. That's to say that reckless allegations at this, or any subsequent, stage of investigations could be very risky in legal terms.
One or two posts have, in my humble opinion, already crossed the line.
Indeed, but I think Satellite Driver's wise words an hour or so back are worth heeding. That's to say that reckless allegations at this, or any subsequent, stage of investigations could be very risky in legal terms.
One or two posts have, in my humble opinion, already crossed the line.
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It occurred to me after our previous posts, the police now declare any car crash resulting in a death as a crime scene and close the area whilst evidence is collected. I imagine the same my now be true of a crash such as this
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Several of the released videos and photos show that the flaps were 'out' at the commencement of the loop and all points thereafter to impact.
What is the opinion of those who have operated the Hunter on flap use during a maneuver that I would have thought required as little drag as possible to achieve?
*Beagle's post found, thanks*
What is the opinion of those who have operated the Hunter on flap use during a maneuver that I would have thought required as little drag as possible to achieve?
*Beagle's post found, thanks*
Last edited by judge11; 23rd Aug 2015 at 19:05.
Sad to hear the mounting loss.
I am a little surprised to read "ban them" comments. However, I expect the investigation will reveal the facts and suitable steps will be taken if required. It seems to me that the costs of insurance could rise substantially. Maybe that is the self-regulating aspect of risk control in our modern times?
OAP
I am a little surprised to read "ban them" comments. However, I expect the investigation will reveal the facts and suitable steps will be taken if required. It seems to me that the costs of insurance could rise substantially. Maybe that is the self-regulating aspect of risk control in our modern times?
OAP
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Just Read This.... Thought I'd Post Here for All
Information Note following Shoreham Airshow Accident on 22nd August 2015
BADA WEB ADMIN AUGUST 23, 2015 BADA NEWS
INFORMATION NOTE
Sunday 23rd August 2015
The British Air Display Association would like to react to the tragic accident that occurred in Shoreham on Saturday August 22nd and first of all to express our support and condolences for the families and friends of all those affected.
UK has long held an exemplary air display record in terms of public safety.
Prior to Saturday’s accident, the last time a member of the public was killed at a UK airshow was in 1952, nearly 63 years ago.
This record reflects the maturity of the multiple checks and balances that UK aviation regulators and airshow practitioners have developed.
The UK has extensive rules that cover airshow organisation, display aircraft heights, speeds and manoeuvres, flying supervision and a special examination and authorisation process for display pilots with graduated steps from simple flypasts to formation and aerobatics approvals.
In this regard, we are the envy of many other nations, not just in Europe but also across the Atlantic.
The Association will not speculate on how or why this particular accident occurred.
Some people might find that frustrating but at this stage even ‘informed’ speculation, without full knowledge of the facts, is unhelpful.
This is a time when careful analysis of the facts is needed before anyone tries to draw conclusions.
It is certainly not a time for un-informed or miss-informed rule making, especially when the existing rules have worked so well for so long.
Air Accident Investigation Branch experts will establish the facts, as quickly as possible.
Then will we will know whether this was a tragic one-off accident or whether there is more that can be done.
If there are lessons from this, that will be something for all involved in airshows to consider.
Our Association will continue to encourage, promote and advance Safety and Standards in British Air Displays.
About the British Air Display Association:
The British Air Display Association was formed in 2011 to consolidate a number of separate expert communities, each with their own expertise, involved in UK airshows. The Association aims to foster the highest standards throughout UK air displays and arranges conferences before and after each summer’s flying display season a cohesive so that all those involved in UK air displays, whether military or civilian, sponsor, event organiser, aircraft owner, flying supervisor or display pilot can exchange ideas and learn together. The conferences are held in conjunction and with the support of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Military Aviation Authority. Other partners and affiliated organisations are the European Airshow Council, the Historic Aircraft Association and the Honourable Company of Air Pilots.
BADA WEB ADMIN AUGUST 23, 2015 BADA NEWS
INFORMATION NOTE
Sunday 23rd August 2015
The British Air Display Association would like to react to the tragic accident that occurred in Shoreham on Saturday August 22nd and first of all to express our support and condolences for the families and friends of all those affected.
UK has long held an exemplary air display record in terms of public safety.
Prior to Saturday’s accident, the last time a member of the public was killed at a UK airshow was in 1952, nearly 63 years ago.
This record reflects the maturity of the multiple checks and balances that UK aviation regulators and airshow practitioners have developed.
The UK has extensive rules that cover airshow organisation, display aircraft heights, speeds and manoeuvres, flying supervision and a special examination and authorisation process for display pilots with graduated steps from simple flypasts to formation and aerobatics approvals.
In this regard, we are the envy of many other nations, not just in Europe but also across the Atlantic.
The Association will not speculate on how or why this particular accident occurred.
Some people might find that frustrating but at this stage even ‘informed’ speculation, without full knowledge of the facts, is unhelpful.
This is a time when careful analysis of the facts is needed before anyone tries to draw conclusions.
It is certainly not a time for un-informed or miss-informed rule making, especially when the existing rules have worked so well for so long.
Air Accident Investigation Branch experts will establish the facts, as quickly as possible.
Then will we will know whether this was a tragic one-off accident or whether there is more that can be done.
If there are lessons from this, that will be something for all involved in airshows to consider.
Our Association will continue to encourage, promote and advance Safety and Standards in British Air Displays.
About the British Air Display Association:
The British Air Display Association was formed in 2011 to consolidate a number of separate expert communities, each with their own expertise, involved in UK airshows. The Association aims to foster the highest standards throughout UK air displays and arranges conferences before and after each summer’s flying display season a cohesive so that all those involved in UK air displays, whether military or civilian, sponsor, event organiser, aircraft owner, flying supervisor or display pilot can exchange ideas and learn together. The conferences are held in conjunction and with the support of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Military Aviation Authority. Other partners and affiliated organisations are the European Airshow Council, the Historic Aircraft Association and the Honourable Company of Air Pilots.
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@Onceapilot
There are potentially people under the aircraft. They need to get a crane in before they can say for sure.
There are potentially people under the aircraft. They need to get a crane in before they can say for sure.
LJ posted
All well and good for roads and houses and other such fixed infrastructure, but what about informal gatherings of spectators outside the main show ground - like those in front of the building (pub?) immediately beside this crash site? I recall one of the MiGs crashed immediately in front of one of the many adhoc external viewing areas at RIAT in '92.
I seem to recall there being a line about considering gatherings of the local populace outside the spectators enclosures and how they must be cosnidered in the display planning
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Dead_pan,
Unfortunately, it is impossible to accommodate for everyone. I agree that display line should be a set distance away from major roads, residential areas and towns, etc. to protect those who are not attending the show. However, as has been already said, those attending an air show do so at their own risk.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to accommodate for everyone. I agree that display line should be a set distance away from major roads, residential areas and towns, etc. to protect those who are not attending the show. However, as has been already said, those attending an air show do so at their own risk.
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The police will be acting effectively as agents of the AAIB and coroner in this case. They will have the experience and resources to assist in gathering evidence from scene, witnesses and recorded media. They will very much be led in this by the AAIB.
When we're talking about prosecutions it's probably worth looking at the ongoing Glasgow bin lorry crash.
Don't mix up offences with crimes either. Not everything that is an offence is a crime. Drink driving being an example.
When we're talking about prosecutions it's probably worth looking at the ongoing Glasgow bin lorry crash.
Don't mix up offences with crimes either. Not everything that is an offence is a crime. Drink driving being an example.
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Regardless, thoughts and condolences go out to all involved.
Nice
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Not everything that is an offence is a crime. Drink driving being an example.
Lot's of digression tonight (as per above) but today's discussion has been notably calmer. Perhaps everyone is at least coming to terms with whats happened.
I mentioned last night that the Police suggesting the casualty figures rising was likely to be a hint. What a shame that it has.
Have to say I am in a state of shock...just over for a rare visit to these shores and have a great weekend in Brighton.
Drove down the a27 on Friday night and the road around the traffic lights was very heavily signposted no stop, no parking and I seem to recall no spectating probably for this very reason..... I guess the usual it won't happen to me prevails amongst the spectators.
On Saturday afternoon was having a pint or two on the seafront outside the old ship hotel and saw Brighton police respond and drive hell for leather down the prom. BZ guys for negotiating the traffic with the speed you did without causing more problems
Have to say the drive back to Pompey today was sobering... Driving through shoreham by the south side of the airport was a moving experience with many of the display signs still out.
Thoughts are most certainly with Alan and all the spectators still battling in hospital and my prayers are with the families of those not so fortunate.
That is all I have to say......
Drove down the a27 on Friday night and the road around the traffic lights was very heavily signposted no stop, no parking and I seem to recall no spectating probably for this very reason..... I guess the usual it won't happen to me prevails amongst the spectators.
On Saturday afternoon was having a pint or two on the seafront outside the old ship hotel and saw Brighton police respond and drive hell for leather down the prom. BZ guys for negotiating the traffic with the speed you did without causing more problems
Have to say the drive back to Pompey today was sobering... Driving through shoreham by the south side of the airport was a moving experience with many of the display signs still out.
Thoughts are most certainly with Alan and all the spectators still battling in hospital and my prayers are with the families of those not so fortunate.
That is all I have to say......