Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow
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....the CAA is populated in the main by officials, many of whom having little or no understanding of aviation...
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Looping the venerable Hawker Hunter
Please see the great formation aeros picture at post #596 on this thread.
If 4 regular RAF Squadron pilots can consistently loop 4 Hawker Hunters safely in close formation – why can a solo Hunter pilot not complete a safe loop without hitting the ground and causing havoc at an airshow?
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If 4 regular RAF Squadron pilots can consistently loop 4 Hawker Hunters safely in close formation – why can a solo Hunter pilot not complete a safe loop without hitting the ground and causing havoc at an airshow?
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bigglesbrother,
Have you read any of this thread or indead anything about the accident at all?
He couldn't complete a loop because he was not attempting to fly a loop! It was a completely different manoeuvre.
Have you read any of this thread or indead anything about the accident at all?
He couldn't complete a loop because he was not attempting to fly a loop! It was a completely different manoeuvre.
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Looping a Hawker Hunter
Hallo Flaps 62 ....
If a Hawker Hunter starts a pull up from a normal upright flight position - keeps pulling and climbing until it is inverted - (becoming desperately slow at the top as it happens) and then pulls through toward the original upright normal flight attitude as it nears the original start altitude - that is essentially a 'loop'.
A change of direction from entry heading to descent/impact heading does not negate the general aerodynamic description 'loop'.
The Shoreham Hunter went up, was inverted at the top, and then descended with the intent to arrive once more in a normal upright flying attitude at around manoeuvre start height. This it failed to do with tragic consequences.
The axis of the loop was likely skewed by the pilot in an attempt to stay within the airshow airspace, but it was still up we go and down we come - planning to arrive at the start height ready for the next display manoeuvre.
If a Hawker Hunter starts a pull up from a normal upright flight position - keeps pulling and climbing until it is inverted - (becoming desperately slow at the top as it happens) and then pulls through toward the original upright normal flight attitude as it nears the original start altitude - that is essentially a 'loop'.
A change of direction from entry heading to descent/impact heading does not negate the general aerodynamic description 'loop'.
The Shoreham Hunter went up, was inverted at the top, and then descended with the intent to arrive once more in a normal upright flying attitude at around manoeuvre start height. This it failed to do with tragic consequences.
The axis of the loop was likely skewed by the pilot in an attempt to stay within the airshow airspace, but it was still up we go and down we come - planning to arrive at the start height ready for the next display manoeuvre.
bigglesbrother,
It's a Saturday night, this has indeed been done to death but here goes.
If you cannot understand how any rolling manoeuvre has a significant impact on the geometry of a vertical manoeuvre and you insist on calling a barrel roll/quarter clover a "loop" then I have doubts about your credentials to comment. Perhaps you should ask your brother (or even Algy) to explain things to you.
Oh, by the way, you say the Hunter was "desperately slow at the top". Can you please tell me its IAS in the inverted position?
It's a Saturday night, this has indeed been done to death but here goes.
If you cannot understand how any rolling manoeuvre has a significant impact on the geometry of a vertical manoeuvre and you insist on calling a barrel roll/quarter clover a "loop" then I have doubts about your credentials to comment. Perhaps you should ask your brother (or even Algy) to explain things to you.
Oh, by the way, you say the Hunter was "desperately slow at the top". Can you please tell me its IAS in the inverted position?
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Seeking your erudite advice Sir .....
Courtney,
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts. But your reply #1297 above is disingenuous.
In post #1295 above the writer states in print .... 'He couldn't complete a loop because he was not attempting to fly a loop!'.
My reply was to that simple but totally erroneous statement.
Going up & coming down in what is essentially a big vertical circle has been described as a loop since the days of biplanes looping while tied together with ribbons.
I reiterate: the Hawker Hunter pilot was attempting a low level looping manoeuvre and screwed up in a big way.
PS Your spelling is not good. Who is Bogglesbrother?
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts. But your reply #1297 above is disingenuous.
In post #1295 above the writer states in print .... 'He couldn't complete a loop because he was not attempting to fly a loop!'.
My reply was to that simple but totally erroneous statement.
Going up & coming down in what is essentially a big vertical circle has been described as a loop since the days of biplanes looping while tied together with ribbons.
I reiterate: the Hawker Hunter pilot was attempting a low level looping manoeuvre and screwed up in a big way.
PS Your spelling is not good. Who is Bogglesbrother?
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He certainly seems much better informed than the rest of us ATC! Quite remarkable really. All those months of painstaking investigations then someone simply pops up here and tells us all exactly what happened.
My advice? Don't feed the trolls.........
My advice? Don't feed the trolls.........
Originally Posted by BigglesBrother
I reiterate: the Hawker Hunter pilot was attempting a low level looping manoeuvre and screwed up in a big way.
Oh, and by the way,
Originally Posted by Courtney Mil
Thank you for telling us what everyone here has been discussing for months now.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 5th Mar 2016 at 15:42.
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Thank you, D Sqn.
I can't see where Thomas Coupling got that gem from, but it isn't something I've seen elsewhere; he may have inside information, who knows. There was no expectation to publish before the Summer, but that was the AAIB estimate before they had reallt started the in-depth stuff. how the investigation has progressed since then would not be in the public domain; they wouldn't raise false hopes by suggesting an earlier date until they're ready to go.
Despite that, it's entirely possible that they're drafting now, but untill we see otherwise, I'm expecting the original date. Earlier, of course, would be good if they've finished.
I can't see where Thomas Coupling got that gem from, but it isn't something I've seen elsewhere; he may have inside information, who knows. There was no expectation to publish before the Summer, but that was the AAIB estimate before they had reallt started the in-depth stuff. how the investigation has progressed since then would not be in the public domain; they wouldn't raise false hopes by suggesting an earlier date until they're ready to go.
Despite that, it's entirely possible that they're drafting now, but untill we see otherwise, I'm expecting the original date. Earlier, of course, would be good if they've finished.
D sqdrn:
As the AAIB stipulated in the Nov 2015 BADA meeting, they will feed findings into the CAA review in time for their (CAA) summary. This is to avoid the CAA having to re-adjust their summary at a later date when the AAIB promulgate theirs. The AAIB summary will take as long as it takes.
As the AAIB stipulated in the Nov 2015 BADA meeting, they will feed findings into the CAA review in time for their (CAA) summary. This is to avoid the CAA having to re-adjust their summary at a later date when the AAIB promulgate theirs. The AAIB summary will take as long as it takes.
D Sqn, if you're referring to
Posted 19:33 21 Feb 2016 (Post #1283) I wondered about that too.
Originally Posted by Thomascoupling
Alvin steele: Yes the CAA will be privvy to the AAIB findings before they go to print in March. In fact I believe the findings went there last week.