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Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

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Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Old 1st Sep 2015, 09:53
  #581 (permalink)  
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KarlADrage
This photo on airliners.net shows perfectly the accident aircraft venting fuel from the starboard drop tank during a display at Biggin Hill in September 2014.
That is normal tank venting.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 11:54
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The accident has yet to make the monthly aviation magazines, with Flypast and Aeroplane going to press before it happened.

I will be interested to see how it is covered, but as much of the aviation media never likes to report bad or controversial news I suspect it will along the lines of 'we won't comment on anything until the report is published'. This is the polar opposite of the feeding frenzy in the national media, and if so will be in my eyes as unacceptable. As an event that will have a huge impact in aviation in the UK, airshows and the general perception of vintage aircraft, I hope the specialist press will come out all guns blazing to report the event soberly, offer a reasoned, balanced viewpoint and refute the sensationalist crap in the dailies. I know it is preaching to the converted but these magazines are on sale in public venues and if just a handful of people pick one up out of curiosity, read something sensible and learn about what happened it might help.

Just a thought.
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 12:11
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Martin


The aviation mags do report accidents but don't in general have all the grim imagery. And the reason it gets a reasonable report in magazines is that some of us (that did once work) in aviation publishing and some of the editors knew the victims on several occasions.



V1
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Old 1st Sep 2015, 20:42
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Was AH flying the jet in the RHS? I saw a photo in one of the papers last weekend where I thought I could see a bone dome. Not sure if my eyes are playing tricks on me. Anybody else see anything?


P.S. I think it was the Daily Mail and the article related to the people who has a near miss. I have been out of the country since Saturday so any news on AH?
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 12:10
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Inquest

Just heard on the radio that the inquest into the deaths started today. Although all answers will not be forthcoming at least the process has started. My thoughts are with the families of those killed.
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 13:33
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The coroner has promised the families a 'full and fearless inquiry' with the inquest expected in June 2016.

http:///www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-34117125
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 15:00
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Fine Pitch

Suggest you read article by Jon Whaley who really does know his stuff. Better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open the mouth and remove all possible doubt. You will note than Jon refuses to speculate a view which I thoroughly respect. Remain in coarse pitch!
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 16:36
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'fearless'

was that the word actually used by the coroner?

Is it just me, or is that an unnecessarily emotionally loaded adjective? Makes him/her sound like a right ****, with some kind of premeditated bias.
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 16:41
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According to the Beeb lunchtime news the coroner was a she, and she ordered that police and AAIB investigations be concluded before her next report in 6/2016.

I am sure the AAIB will take no notice and proceed with their customary diligence.
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Old 2nd Sep 2015, 17:55
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Some more thoughts on looping the Hawker Hunter

My copy of Pilots Notes HUNTER T.7 A.P. 4347GP.N. August 1958 states on page 88.

(b) Loop 425 knots
It is recommended that until experience is gained, loops are started in the height band 10,000ft to 15,000 ft.


Rumours & News PPRuNe post #55 .... pilot states
Having been around Hunters for a large part of my aviation career I can say it's not uncommon for a Hunter pilot to use "1 notch" of flap for maneuvering.


On these pages we are talking about an experienced display pilot starting a solo loop not at a PN recommended 10,000, but in denser air at around 500 agl.
My guess is that he would start the pull up at about 350 - 380 kts using full power and one notch of flap. Full power would be maintained all the way round the loop with the pilot smoothly pulling more or less g so as to achieve the desired speeds at each point in the loop. Thus if the Hunter is slow at the top of the loop, stick pressure would be briefly slackened to enable the Hunter to accelerate to say 200kts or more and get some g bite on the air before starting on the downward path, with a gradual increase in g being applied with increasing speed.

A truly circular loop is never the aim: a safe loop at manageable handling speeds is the aim as fighter aircraft accelerate quickly and often lose speed very quickly when g is pulled at lowish speeds. Thus a low level display Hunter loop is very unlikely ever to be a true round circle.
The aircraft aerodynamic capability must come first. As long as the Hunter goes up to a defined gate height and speed to ensure a safe downward flight path, the observation that the aircraft is indeed slowish, or flying level upside down for a few seconds at the top to gain speed is not of great note to Joe Public the viewer.

The Hunter solo display pilot would use a high power setting and maintain this high power all the way round the loop pulling more or sometimes less g as required to control the speed. A target speed plan might be around 350 - 380 kts at the start and at the finish with a desired 180 kts at the top of the loop.

Two footnotes:
Digressing to the Lightning, low level solo display loops were flown all the way round in max reheat, pulling more or sometimes less g to control speed and shape. Safe aerodynamic control and a modicum of airfield positioning came way ahead of the impossible desire of achieving a truly round loop.

Back to the Hawker Hunter: Flying 16 or 22 Hunters in a formation loop at the Farnborough Air Show was altogether a more demanding and daunting prospect for the Leader and those who followed him.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 05:38
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Suggest you read article by Jon Whaley who really does know his stuff
Given that the article is already imbedded into this thread why would you assume regular knowledgeable contributors have not already read it? Most will have (including me).

Moreover, rather than slinging out random insults, if you read the thread in detail you will quickly find that as regards the actual accident, most "good" contributors have followed exactly the same stance as JW - discussion good; speculation bad. Of course there are the misguided, judgmental etc...it's the internet FFS.

Most of the disagreement on the thread relates to air displays and their conduct in general. This tragedy is only an element in that discourse and for many of us who have been around aviation a long time, it was an inevitable accident waiting to happen. Frankly the outcome of any AAIB report will have very little bearing on many peoples opinions of air displays, whichever side of the debate they sit on.

I think the larger air display debate on this particular thread is...

healthy
timely
not speculative
largely well informed
mostly professional
welcome

There are other "troll-infested" threads around PPRuNe running about this accident and the air display consequences, which are far from the above. If you just want to slag people off, you could pop on to one of them and have a dig.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 14:40
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Hunter pilots often use "1 notch" of flap for maneuvering

...... it's not uncommon for a Hunter pilot to use "1 notch" of flap for maneuvering.....



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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 15:14
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Aerobatics with tanks on too
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 15:55
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As shown in post #403
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 16:17
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and bigger engine.....
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 18:29
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JFZ90
Makes him/her sound like a right ****, with some kind of premeditated bias.
I guess that if you were a relative in the courtroom, still in shock at your loss, you would want to hear that the Coroner, the legal or medically qualified person appointed to provide a verdict as to the cause of death, was going to do everything possible to get answers as to why your loved ones were killed while going about their business. Or is there something you find particularly distasteful about that?
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 18:41
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I guess that if you were a relative in the courtroom, still in shock at your loss, you would want to hear that the Coroner, the legal or medically qualified person appointed to provide a verdict as to the cause of death, was going to do everything possible to get answers as to why your loved ones were killed while going about their business. Or is there something you find particularly distasteful about that? (emphasis added)
A sincere question: In the UK is it really the coroner's job to determine "why" a person died as opposed to "how"? I ask because in another thread about aerotoxic syndrome another coroner made some scathing conclusions about air quality in airliners having contributed to a person's death. That sounded odd to an American's ears.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 19:56
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UK Coroners Duties

Ken,

The paragraph below is lifted from a government document given to relatives of a deceased:


When a death is reported to a coroner, he or she:
firstly establishes whether an investigation is required;
if yes, investigates to establish the identity of the person who has died; how, when, and where they died; and any information required to register the death; and
uses information discovered during the investigation to assist in the prevention of other deaths where possible.

Hope this helps. Google is your friend.

ACW
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 20:20
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Thanks for that, including your Google admonition.

That last item (uses information discovered during the investigation to assist in the prevention of other deaths where possible) is interesting from an American's perspective. So if an aircraft performing at an air show is determined to be the cause of death, the coroner could (rule? suggest? require? recommend? I'm not sure of the correct term here) that air shows be banned? If so, I now better understand the coroner's meaning in her use of the word "fearless".
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 20:40
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I guess that if you were a relative in the courtroom, still in shock at your loss, you would want to hear that the Coroner, the legal or medically qualified person appointed to provide a verdict as to the cause of death, was going to do everything possible to get answers as to why your loved ones were killed while going about their business. Or is there something you find particularly distasteful about that?
My concern is really that the adjective is inappropriate.

Full and thorough investigation would suffice.

Fearless implies that the coroner has already decided that there maybe a need to be aggressive or confrontational with the sources or evidence or those involved in the incident. I see no evidence so far to suggest the coroner will not get full co-operation to get to the bottom of this incident.

Is there some reason you think the coroner needs to start out all guns blazing and being fearless? Or could they approach the investigation dispassionately with an open mind and diligently find out the truth?

If I was unfortunate enough to be involved in this tradegy, I'd want the coroner to conduct the investigation without any apparent "I'll show them" bias from the outset. I'd want neutrality and the truth.

The phase fearless creates the impression the coroner "already knows best" and may decide they can interpret expert testimony accordingly. In my view that's where a previous coroner went rather wrong in another high profile aviation case.

I maybe reading too much into it, but it has already created the wrong impression in my mind, and I suspect I am not alone. Even if there is nothing behind it, the choice of words was in my view poor.
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