RAF Typhoons vs Indian Flankers

[Peter Carter]

There's an article in the Times this morning about an Indian detachment to Coningsby where the IAF claims a 12-0 victory over the RAF in ACT. Title is: "We humiliated RAF pilots". Anyone know what really happened?

[jwcook]

A spokesman for the Royal Air Force said the U.K. air arm’s analysis of the results from the exercise did not tally with the NDTV report.

“Our analysis does not match what has been reported. RAF pilots and the Typhoon performed well throughout the exercise with and against the Indian Air Force,” the RAF spokesman said. “Both nations learnt a great deal from the exercise and the RAF look forward to the next opportunity to train alongside the IAF.”

RAF sources told Aviation Week the score of 12-0 did not figure in any of the post-exercise analysis and that the Typhoons were not using the full capability of their weapon systems and that in the “realistic operational” scenarios conducted during the exercise, the Typhoon performance was superior.

Tony Osborne, August 6th AvWeek

[P6 Driver]

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[Lordflasheart]

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

I wonder if they've got their AESA radars yet ?

[Courtney Mil]

Originally Posted by P6

So the RAF version seems to be saying that they were chuffed to bits that the IAF brought their jets over to play, but the Typhoons weren't really trying and let them win.

Surely if it was described as a "realistic scenario", why wouldn't the Typhoons use their full (simulated) capability?

No, it doesn't even imply that the Typhoons weren't really trying, you inferred that incorrectly, or maybe wilfully. It is absolutely standard to agree weapons loads and training requirements before the exercise for all sorts of reasons.

One thing's for sure, we shan't be finding out what the training limitations, political restrains and security issues were for this exchange anytime soon. If you're not convinced, Google a few other excercises from the past 10 years or so (Red Flag, Green Flag and previous ones in this series) and you'll see what I mean.

And, no, I have no reason to be defensive of the RAF Typhoon guys.

[P6 Driver]

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[Bastardeux]

CM is right though, we have no idea what the ROE were or the limitations put on weapons use. Having said that, my contact with the Indian Air Force makes me 99% sure that they are being extremely economical with the truth!

I'll hold my tongue from here; but the idea that they've come over with an inferior aircraft, and a bunch of pilots, whose expertise have gained notoriety from their time at Valley, and obliterated us is laughable. The more I think about it, the more I cringe

[airsound]

Bastardeux

the idea that they've come over with an inferior aircraft, and a bunch of pilots, whose expertise have gained notoriety from their time at Valley, and obliterated us is laughable. The more I think about it, the more I cringe

I've no reason to doubt what you say, Bastardeux, but could it be that the Indians operating WVR got a significant advantage from the Su30MKI thrust vectoring?

airsound

[Bastardeux]

Theoretically, yes, but you would have to put severe limitations on the ability of the Typhoon to do what it does best. Like I said, they're being extremely economical with the truth.

[Bevo]

Yes the IAF must be the greatest air force in the world based on their press releases.

Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a 9:1 kill ratio against U.S F-15s

Held at the Gwalior Indian Air Force range from Feb. 15 to 27, 2004, Cope India 04 exercise gained the headlines not only because it marked the beginning of a new chapter in bilateral relations between India and US, but also because Indian pilots were able to win more than 90 percent of the mock air engagements conducted against U.S. Air Force F-15C jets from 3rd Wing based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska. The results of this joint training was surprising, somehow shocking........

BUT!!!!

Several limitations reduced the chances of victory of the Eagle drivers against the Indian fighters. First of all, the lack of the advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on their F-15s. Second, the air engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).

Furthermore, the Indians had sent their most experienced airmen to fight against the Americans whereas the latter belonged to a standard squadron (hence there was a mix of experienced and less experienced pilots).

LINK

[CoffmanStarter]

Here's what the Indian Press reported ...

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

[Heathrow Harry]

non event-

I'm pretty sure the IAF has some damn god pilots and the Flanker is a good fighter. The Indians also know they are much more likely than the RAF to have to fight at short notice against either Pakistan or China which probably keeps them pretty sharp

BUT - they want to keep making the trips to the USA/UK/Australia if only to test against other 4Gen fighters so their CO is going to claim "victory" as much as he can - if he reports "we were murdered" it's an end to exchange visits for sure

It's good for the RAF to test against the sort of 'planes Mr Puitin has and especially since some of the Indian training will be based on Russian doctrine

[Rosevidney1]

Delete North Korean Insert Indian Ministry of Truthful and Incorruptible Information

[JFZ90]

Maybe this is an elaborate ruse to finally get an AESA & other toys on Typhoon?

[Courtney Mil]

Air sound,

Thrust vectoring etc. it offers massive nose authority, but has a huge effect on pushing the jet forward. It is not the panacea for sustained manoeuvre. I have said this many times here, you can only get so much out of a jet within its physical limitations.

Here's a good read - bear with it until you get to the bit about trust vector. One of the best descriptions in one paragraph I've seen.

How To Win In A Dogfight: Stories From A Pilot Who Flew F-16s And MiGs

Thanks to fonsini for his post:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...6-musings.html

[Rhino power]

Originally Posted by JFZ90

Maybe this is an elaborate ruse to finally get an AESA & other toys on Typhoon?

A pretty pointless ruse, since Typhoon is already going to get an 'AESA & other toys' (Meteor/Brimstone/Stormshadow), development and integration work is already well under way...

-RP

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Rhino. It's all funded and happening.

[NutLoose]

Thanks Courtney, that was an excellent read.

[O-P]

CM,

Correct me, please, if I'm wrong...it won't be the first time.

TTBOMK, the partner nations have only, so far, funded the integration of CAPTOR E, not actually bought any. I think the integration cost was circa 1B (of those silly things the Greeks still use....just).

I understand that P3-5E cannot move ahead without AESA, and the signing of production contracts maybe just a formality...

OH WAIT, I've got it! Perhaps this time we're going to make sure it actually works before signing over a crap ton(ne) of cash!

[Courtney Mil]

Good point, well made, OP. To be more accurate on my previous statement, the funding is there, dotted line still need to scribbled on. And you are right, nothing happens in a consortium without tonnes of euromoney. Making sure it works BEFORE buying it would be an innovative concept.