Gnat down at CarFest
As has already been said, it is strange that the medical condition point is not further developed in the report. Whether it did or did not contribute to the accident we will never know, but we do know that the Pilots RAF career was brought to a halt by it, we do know that he did not have the recommended medical intervention to address the condition, and we do know that he didnt declare it subsequently.
It simply beggars belief that at no point in the various applications and medicals which he would have undertaken in the intervening period was he ever asked to declare whether there was any other relevant factor or pre existing condition. You cant even hire a car at the airport without confirming that you have no medical condition which might affect your ability to drive! Were the processes so deficient that he was never asked, or is there a parallel with the Glasgow bin lorry to be drawn.....
It simply beggars belief that at no point in the various applications and medicals which he would have undertaken in the intervening period was he ever asked to declare whether there was any other relevant factor or pre existing condition. You cant even hire a car at the airport without confirming that you have no medical condition which might affect your ability to drive! Were the processes so deficient that he was never asked, or is there a parallel with the Glasgow bin lorry to be drawn.....
Last edited by falcon900; 13th May 2016 at 12:44. Reason: grammar!
airpolice wrote:
Mrs Courtney's little lad too tall?? ROTFLMAO, as they say!
The reason was that both the Gnat and Hunter had been phased out by the time CM reached Valley, so he did his advanced flying training on the JP6, otherwise known as the Hawk T1. Not for him the mysteries of STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT, the Hobson motor, cam K and datum shift.....
Regarding the AAIB report, its forensic investigation is very thorough and an excellent piece of work. Whether the pilot was incapacitated, disorientated, or simply out of his depth will never be known.
Courtney, why have you never flown the Gnat, were you too tall..?
The reason was that both the Gnat and Hunter had been phased out by the time CM reached Valley, so he did his advanced flying training on the JP6, otherwise known as the Hawk T1. Not for him the mysteries of STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT, the Hobson motor, cam K and datum shift.....
Regarding the AAIB report, its forensic investigation is very thorough and an excellent piece of work. Whether the pilot was incapacitated, disorientated, or simply out of his depth will never be known.
Quote from the EASA Mental Health TF report:
“The majority of medical conditions present in between medical examinations are not detected … unless reported by the pilot.”
And that was written about ATPL holders, this man was operating on a PPL.
“The majority of medical conditions present in between medical examinations are not detected … unless reported by the pilot.”
And that was written about ATPL holders, this man was operating on a PPL.
Last edited by Fortissimo; 13th May 2016 at 13:55. Reason: Omission
You would have thought that before they let him strap a Gnat on they would have asked why he had stopped flying training in the RAF.
However there's still the issue of exposure. Unless an individual is going to go off and buy lots (i.e. hundreds of hours) of swept wing fast jet time I really don't think it's reasonable or sensible for them to go off and perform fast jet aerobatic display flying in front of the paying public. Just for background I've much the same early career path as CM and Beags, and very very much agree with CM's analysis.
As for the lack of medical disclosure - we've been around the houses a few times about this on the German Wings thread and I don't have an answer.
Last edited by wiggy; 13th May 2016 at 15:24.
Jim's sibling - the there were those who had, or had been "twinkled" low level at the Llyn Ogwen bend on the A5 pass. Did the Reds of the day not have Fuse 13 removed
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 71
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wander00,
The twinkle roll, fuse 13, and the Arrows are all covered in the post here, to which I referred.
In that thread, northwing says:
I remember once being told by my Gnat QFI that my flying wasn't "punchy" enough. In response, on the next trip, I punchily "twinkle" rolled as we climbed out of the A5 pass, which resulted in a pretty one-sided debrief about carrying out aerobatics at low level - especially when that results in one's QFI's head banging rapidly on both sides of the canopy. He was quite right, though - I simply didn't have the experience to do that sort of thing - which pretty well illustrates my point about the importance of close supervision of the young pilot who thinks he is just fantastic.
The twinkle roll, fuse 13, and the Arrows are all covered in the post here, to which I referred.
In that thread, northwing says:
Everyone was happy, not to mention legal, till an ex Red Arrow who had returned to instructional duties flying a Gnat with Fuse 13 in place developed an unusual demonstration for his students. He decided to show them how fast a Gnat could roll by applying full (12deg, fuse in) lateral stick and helping the aircraft round with rudder. He thought this was OK because he did it within the restricted Red Arrows rolling limits. The fin, however, had other views about full rudder at 350 knots and broke in protest. The RAF system then missed the point, over-reacted and insisted that everybody fly with Fuse 13 in place. End of super formation twinkle rolls.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wolf Parkinson White Syndrome
Interesting Report. I had WPWS and displayed not-so-fast jets.
I left the RAF in 1975 because it had been discovered that I had WPWS. This caused my aircrew category to be downgraded to “As or with a Co-pilot”. CME did not offer surgery to repair the condition and the Air Sec told me that I had no chance of becoming CAS without a clean aircrew category. Well, that settled it for me, and as I had been formalising my ATPL and discussed the civil medical condition with a local AME (Army doc as it happened), CAA gave me a Class 1 medical certificate, limited to “As or with a Co-pilot”. This limitation was no hindrance to the civvie world, and that is what I entered. CAA had me visit CME(?) whenever the medical was renewed to see that the condition had not deteriorated. I was looked after by an RAF senior doctor.
When I finished paid civvie flying, I approached the CAA to have the “As or with” restriction lifted so that I could get some PPL flying. This was accomplished after a 24 hour heart monitor test, and I was back to flying single pilot, with a Class 2 medical. Being over 50, ECGs were required annually. I began flying vintage aeroplanes (Piston Provost, SAAB 91 and Chipmunk), obtained a Display Authorisation and extended it to Jet Provosts (Mks 1, 3 and 5a). I stopped displaying these types in 1998 and acquired a DA for Microlight aircraft. It amused me that I was restricted to aerobatics in microlights down to 400ft agl. At that time microlights were absolutely non-aerobatic.
In 2003 I had an operation (ablation) to clear the WPWS which was successful. ECGs were back to normal. I finished flying in 2008 as a microlight pilot.
Interesting Report. I had WPWS and displayed not-so-fast jets.
I left the RAF in 1975 because it had been discovered that I had WPWS. This caused my aircrew category to be downgraded to “As or with a Co-pilot”. CME did not offer surgery to repair the condition and the Air Sec told me that I had no chance of becoming CAS without a clean aircrew category. Well, that settled it for me, and as I had been formalising my ATPL and discussed the civil medical condition with a local AME (Army doc as it happened), CAA gave me a Class 1 medical certificate, limited to “As or with a Co-pilot”. This limitation was no hindrance to the civvie world, and that is what I entered. CAA had me visit CME(?) whenever the medical was renewed to see that the condition had not deteriorated. I was looked after by an RAF senior doctor.
When I finished paid civvie flying, I approached the CAA to have the “As or with” restriction lifted so that I could get some PPL flying. This was accomplished after a 24 hour heart monitor test, and I was back to flying single pilot, with a Class 2 medical. Being over 50, ECGs were required annually. I began flying vintage aeroplanes (Piston Provost, SAAB 91 and Chipmunk), obtained a Display Authorisation and extended it to Jet Provosts (Mks 1, 3 and 5a). I stopped displaying these types in 1998 and acquired a DA for Microlight aircraft. It amused me that I was restricted to aerobatics in microlights down to 400ft agl. At that time microlights were absolutely non-aerobatic.
In 2003 I had an operation (ablation) to clear the WPWS which was successful. ECGs were back to normal. I finished flying in 2008 as a microlight pilot.
Originally Posted by airpolice
Courtney, why have you never flown the Gnat, were you too tall and therefore on Hunters at Valley?
I'm surprised that the AAIB report made no reference to this incident at Abingdon, not long before the Oulton Park accident. I understand that there was another incident at Culdrose not long afterwards too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mt7i9zCs-c
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: N/W London
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought that too Mike as it was heart stopping at Abingdon when I saw it, but on reflection he wasn't rolling at the time and it was hissing down. I assumed he just lost visual references briefly.
FA
FA
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Still on the beach (but this one's cold).
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5'8"? On which planet?
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,618
Received 293 Likes
on
161 Posts
'm surprised that the AAIB report made no reference to this incident at Abingdon
Having read the AAIB report and the comments on here it is odd no one has mentioned his day job and that it may be a factor in this incident. If it has been mentioned on here my apologies. Kevin was obviously a very talented individual being Credit Suisse Group AG’s Head of European asset-backed securities sales and I am presuming an MD. I didn't know Kevin, but I have been in Investment Banking for longer than he was, though in a different area. Pressure in this business comes in all shapes and forms, whether through hitting multi hundred million dollar targets, clients making ever increasing demands, superiors piling on pressure from above and managing teams of people, whom you need to achieve their own goals.The pressure hence is wide and varied. Couple that with long hours, this is no 9-5 job. For many years I used to rise at 4.30am for a 6am start. Lunch hours don't exist and leaving the office at 9pm wasn't uncommon. Seeing clients after work would often see you getting to bed at 1 or 2am, sometimes you would go straight to the office hungover and exhausted. Taking a day off in those circumstances was not acceptable. Now we all did it for the renumeration, which was very rewarding. However the effects on your body through disrupted sleep and the strain of the job never left you. I myself was on call every weekend and often talk calls overnight from the States, further disrupting sleep.I only ever started to relax around 8pm on a Sunday night which was about the time I went to bed. I am not suggesting Kevin suffered from these problems, as we all takes pressure in different ways. However my and my colleagues experience is that the pressure is constant and theres no let up,it never leaves you. I wonder what his general sleep pattern was like? He was a very intelligent individual, who occupied a very senior position in the Investment Banking world, but perhaps that day his mind was also elsewhere. RIP.
Last edited by rolling20; 14th May 2016 at 11:17.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rolling20. Interesting points, however each pilot must ensure he is fit, able and capable of carrying out the task in hand. If you're not fit, licensed and properly current (and I don't mean bare minimums just to get 'legal') then taking to the skies is a huge error of judgement and negligent. I wonder if those spectators would have been happy to be at that event knowing that close by a tricky aircraft was being flown by someone who had barely flown for 5 years?
Between this and shorham I'm glad the CAA have taken their stance. Aged, complex aircraft performing high performance maneuvers, coupled with a dose of the 'wrong stuff' and it's a recipe for disaster.
Between this and shorham I'm glad the CAA have taken their stance. Aged, complex aircraft performing high performance maneuvers, coupled with a dose of the 'wrong stuff' and it's a recipe for disaster.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rolling, thanks for some excellent points there.
I knew Kev way back but didn't know where he'd gone after the RAF. From your last point I guess my only reply would be that the RAF (and other, larger flying organisations) layer their supervision and orders to help manage the individual and help the individual manage him or herself under such pressures. The workloads you describe, though not considered the norm or wise when combined with day-to-day military aviation, are getting increasingly more prevalent in the current and predicted climate. Manpower shortages without a reduction in the 'ask' require sensibility and careful leadership. Operations have often brought such workloads you describe about the IB sector and I speak from experience. In those conditions we always helped each other out and spoke out, regardless of rank. Many times have I said, or heard said, "Boss, you need to get some sleep, I've got this!", followed by an understanding nod.
My view on this is that the organisation Kev was part of wasn't deep enough to provide that mutual 6th sense when things were diverging from the safe operating region. Kev was also undoubtedly very happy flying and in those circumstances it almost assuredly takes someone else to say stop. One word sums it up for me neatly: supervision.
I knew Kev way back but didn't know where he'd gone after the RAF. From your last point I guess my only reply would be that the RAF (and other, larger flying organisations) layer their supervision and orders to help manage the individual and help the individual manage him or herself under such pressures. The workloads you describe, though not considered the norm or wise when combined with day-to-day military aviation, are getting increasingly more prevalent in the current and predicted climate. Manpower shortages without a reduction in the 'ask' require sensibility and careful leadership. Operations have often brought such workloads you describe about the IB sector and I speak from experience. In those conditions we always helped each other out and spoke out, regardless of rank. Many times have I said, or heard said, "Boss, you need to get some sleep, I've got this!", followed by an understanding nod.
My view on this is that the organisation Kev was part of wasn't deep enough to provide that mutual 6th sense when things were diverging from the safe operating region. Kev was also undoubtedly very happy flying and in those circumstances it almost assuredly takes someone else to say stop. One word sums it up for me neatly: supervision.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The operator of G-TIMM did not have an SMS as part of its OCM although it stated that it used a risk-based approach when formulating provisions within the OCM. The operator had not identified any elevated risk arising from the experience, training or currency of the pilot of G-TIMM.
In 2014 the pilot of G-BXFI was evaluated in relation to his Display Authorisation (DA) by a member of the same display team. This was also the case for the pilot involved in the 2015 fatal accident to Folland Gnat T.Mk1 G-TIMM26 at a flying display at Oulton Park, Cheshire.