Gnat down at CarFest
"I did say 'mid-90s'. I've no idea why - I had 1979 written down in front of me. Just shows that you (well, I at any rate) can say stupid things when live on the telly...."
Well, it was early in the morning, Sean
Well, it was early in the morning, Sean
Athonite
Having bumbled through your post (and its disjointed words and spellings), I think I agree with you in part. There have been a number of "Gentlemans' Fast Jet Flying Clubs" that have come a cropper due to the inexperience or lack of ability of some pilots; but I think in this case we can safely say that flying a number of hours on Tucanos and Hawks has given this particular pilot a large amount of experience to draw upon for flying a Gnat. The Display Authorisation (DA) process is pretty rigourous to get through and so I would offer that he should have the skill to complete the activity as planned.
However, it is when it goes 'unplanned' that the inexperienced, or those with lesser capacity, come a cropper. This is where I agree with you about having a demonstrable and significant amount of experience on type (or very similar) before the grant of a DA in a fast jet like this. However, all said, even Chuck Yeager can have a bad day (and he did in a F-104!
).
LJ
Having bumbled through your post (and its disjointed words and spellings), I think I agree with you in part. There have been a number of "Gentlemans' Fast Jet Flying Clubs" that have come a cropper due to the inexperience or lack of ability of some pilots; but I think in this case we can safely say that flying a number of hours on Tucanos and Hawks has given this particular pilot a large amount of experience to draw upon for flying a Gnat. The Display Authorisation (DA) process is pretty rigourous to get through and so I would offer that he should have the skill to complete the activity as planned.
However, it is when it goes 'unplanned' that the inexperienced, or those with lesser capacity, come a cropper. This is where I agree with you about having a demonstrable and significant amount of experience on type (or very similar) before the grant of a DA in a fast jet like this. However, all said, even Chuck Yeager can have a bad day (and he did in a F-104!
).LJ
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"However, all said, even Chuck Yeager can have a bad day (and he did in a F-104!)"
Yes, but didn't most people? Really old joke - 'How do you get your hands on an F-104? Buy a field in Germany, and wait". We said it for the Gnat, too, except the field had to be in Wales . . .
Yes, but didn't most people? Really old joke - 'How do you get your hands on an F-104? Buy a field in Germany, and wait". We said it for the Gnat, too, except the field had to be in Wales . . .
Gnat's Folland seat
GeeRam The Folland seat ia a Saab seat built under licence. MB were asked to provide a seat but, when told what it had to weigh, refused. It's a copy of the Saab J-29 seat.
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Might have no relevance at all, but illustrates the value of not attempting to turn with little power available.... a conservative use of energy gives a better choice of field. I only have the public source video to look at, which shows a spin developing from a steep turn... a sad accident, for whatever cause.
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Despite my detractors on here I still believe this was a classic Gnat spin.. the truth will out... so sad.. I am no expert (drip under pressure yes I know) but I did fly the damn thing and I know what it's reputation was .. I bow to people who know better and can give a more informed opinion.. RIP Kevin
ISTR the magic beam that when the gear went from "airbrake" to "down" cranked in x degrees of up elevator. In manual on an a roller (until they were banned) one worked like a one armed paperhanger, going between full power, electric trim, 90% power, gear up, re-trim, etc. All character building stuff. after that the Canberra at Bassingbourn was pretty benign, until we got to "crit speeds" and practice EFATO
Gnat spin?
I have watched the video of the Gnat crash several times and it doesn't appear to be a low-speed departure. Having flown the wee insect for five years (and spun it - intentionally) I have no idea whatever happened. But it wasn't a spin.
Huh?
Wander00 wrote:
Datum shift was simple and reliable - a piece of bike chain attached to the landing gear actuator which acted on the Hobson motor to add about 3° of TPI (not 'elevator') as the landing gear extended.
Manual rollers weren't banned in my day - even as a pretty cr@p student, my QFI trusted me to fly one...at night...at Mona.
Once the Gnat had been fitted with a feel trim position indicator, STUPRECCC became much easier - the 'T' part meant that setting the feel trim to the safe/ideal sector was easy. 'E', exhausting the accumulator with the TPI at the correct value was important, because the standby trim (actually nothing of the sort - it was an electric motor which moved the whole tailplane) could only be used to increase the TPI n-u value from the point of failure - and it didn't move that quickly. So on landing (or a roller) you set the specified value, accepted the push force and then relaxed it to flare - which was much easier than it sounds.
"Use the s'by trim (whether by using the left coaming switches or, via selecting the mod 399 switches, the stick top trim switches) to keep the control column load-free and central" was the sage advice I was given.
So important were the STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT drills, that I can remember them today even though I can barely remember any checks for the 8 other types I flew subsequently - except for the Chipmunk and JP pre-landing checks, that is!
ISTR the magic beam that when the gear went from "airbrake" to "down" cranked in x degrees of up elevator. In manual on an a roller (until they were banned) one worked like a one armed paperhanger, going between full power, electric trim, 90% power, gear up, re-trim, etc
Manual rollers weren't banned in my day - even as a pretty cr@p student, my QFI trusted me to fly one...at night...at Mona.
Once the Gnat had been fitted with a feel trim position indicator, STUPRECCC became much easier - the 'T' part meant that setting the feel trim to the safe/ideal sector was easy. 'E', exhausting the accumulator with the TPI at the correct value was important, because the standby trim (actually nothing of the sort - it was an electric motor which moved the whole tailplane) could only be used to increase the TPI n-u value from the point of failure - and it didn't move that quickly. So on landing (or a roller) you set the specified value, accepted the push force and then relaxed it to flare - which was much easier than it sounds.
"Use the s'by trim (whether by using the left coaming switches or, via selecting the mod 399 switches, the stick top trim switches) to keep the control column load-free and central" was the sage advice I was given.
So important were the STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT drills, that I can remember them today even though I can barely remember any checks for the 8 other types I flew subsequently - except for the Chipmunk and JP pre-landing checks, that is!
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Smudger's analysis chimes with me. Looked like a classic spin entry off a steep turn, for whatever reason. An all too common air show accident. Of course, it might turn out not to be, so we'll have to wait for the AAIB to tell us.
gzornenplatz, I concur. Shaggy Sheep Driver, the Gnat's handling characteristics are classic swept wing in nature - and absolutely nothing like those of a Chipmunk or Yakovlev 52.
While it's always sad when a pilot loses his/her life, there are previous posts flagging up the pilot's RAF experience, while the press claim the pilot as ex RAF, ace, etc.. I'm not sure you can describe someone as an ex-RAF pilot, or RAF trained if he didn't gain his wings and complete OCU, that is a bit disrespectful to those you gained their wings and flew on operational squadrons with the RAF, RN and Army.
As to display authorisation, I would have though it is not wise, even to consider someone for DA, unless he has completed OCU and a tour with the RAF or RN, on a similar category of aircraft, it simply impossible that someone gain the experience that someone gains through a career in the military. You simply can not purchase military experience. My suggestion would be 1500 on fast jets in a military environment before DA is consider.
Having looked at the experience of the six Gnat display pilots the breakdown is as follows:
2 pilot's with military career background and one a very experienced test pilot, really no problems here.
1 Pilot, RAF (1998-2001), UAS, IOT and some flying on Tocano's and Hawks, but didn't progress onto OCU, question previously asked why?
3 Pilots, only military experience is UAS or AEF (Chipmunks, Gliders, Bulldog), with PPL, CPL, or ATPL civil qualifications background.
It Just started to make me wonder if this a rather exclusive gentlemen's flying club, and in terms of it's charitable status and the tax benefits, whether this group is or was more for the pilots benefits than a public benefit.
As to display authorisation, I would have though it is not wise, even to consider someone for DA, unless he has completed OCU and a tour with the RAF or RN, on a similar category of aircraft, it simply impossible that someone gain the experience that someone gains through a career in the military. You simply can not purchase military experience. My suggestion would be 1500 on fast jets in a military environment before DA is consider.
Having looked at the experience of the six Gnat display pilots the breakdown is as follows:
2 pilot's with military career background and one a very experienced test pilot, really no problems here.
1 Pilot, RAF (1998-2001), UAS, IOT and some flying on Tocano's and Hawks, but didn't progress onto OCU, question previously asked why?
3 Pilots, only military experience is UAS or AEF (Chipmunks, Gliders, Bulldog), with PPL, CPL, or ATPL civil qualifications background.
It Just started to make me wonder if this a rather exclusive gentlemen's flying club, and in terms of it's charitable status and the tax benefits, whether this group is or was more for the pilots benefits than a public benefit.
I know very many good pilots from UAS that chose other careers a few years ago simply because they didn't think they would actually go flying. Budget cuts etc tend to do that.
The last paragraph is distasteful - firstly even the very best pilots with
Mil backgrounds can crash and it serves nobody to make lists here but come on. In the end the process around getting a DA is well established and if there has been any "err" I think I'd rather put it down to people being human than being motivated by a tax benefit... One thing I'm pretty sure won't be mentioned in the AAIB report
SSD, high AoA in the Gnat leads to lots of buffet and a high RoD. You would need to seriously abuse the aircraft very deliberately to induce a spin - the topic wasn't even covered in our AFTS course on the aircraft. The closest we flew to high AoA at low speed was the '100 kt recovery' - "Boot the black*, punch the white*, set 6° TPI, leave the throttle alone and wait...."
Flying in the back on an SCT formation tailchase was the only time I ever saw that drill used in anger - when the creamie QFI became disorientated in the vertical. Fortunately the drill worked as advertised.
While the Gnat has a very complicated longitudinal control system (with which all Gnat pilots must be fully conversant), it actually has very benign handling characteristics. Q-gearing and 'Cam K' make it more pleasant to fly at high speed than even the Hunter 6. A lovely little jet!
* - refers to the yaw dolls' eyes - the Gnat didn't have a 'turn and slip' gauge.
Flying in the back on an SCT formation tailchase was the only time I ever saw that drill used in anger - when the creamie QFI became disorientated in the vertical. Fortunately the drill worked as advertised.
While the Gnat has a very complicated longitudinal control system (with which all Gnat pilots must be fully conversant), it actually has very benign handling characteristics. Q-gearing and 'Cam K' make it more pleasant to fly at high speed than even the Hunter 6. A lovely little jet!
* - refers to the yaw dolls' eyes - the Gnat didn't have a 'turn and slip' gauge.
Can one of you spell out what CUBSTUNT and STUPRECCC are actually checklist anagrams for?
Just curious...
Got it:
S - Speed below 400/ M0.85
T - Trim (feel trim) to the Ideal sector on the FTPI
U - Unlock the elevators, checking 2 clicks, white band and 'ELEV' caption.
P - Power (hydraulic) cock - OFF
R - Raise the standby trim guard
E - Exhaust the pitch accumulator (1.5 to 2.5 deg TPI with u/c up, 5.5 to 6.5 with u/c down), then the aileron accumulator
C- Check elevator response
C - Check TPI response using s'by trim switches nose-up/nose-down
C - Changeover switches (Mod 399) - select
Then maintain the control column at the 'load free central' position using stick top switches to set pitch attitude, control column to hold attitude with unlocked elevators. With u/c down before landing, set 3 deg TPI and confirm a push force reqired to maintain level flight; relax push force to flare.
And CUBSTUNT (for AC/DC failure):
C - Cabin altimeter cock to 'Static'
U - S'by UHF ON
B - Boost pump OFF
S - Speed below 300/M0.7
T - Trim to ideal sector
U - Unlock elevators (2 clicks, white band, 'ELEV' caption on)
N - Non essential electrics OFF
T - Transponder to 7700
Just curious...
Got it:
S - Speed below 400/ M0.85
T - Trim (feel trim) to the Ideal sector on the FTPI
U - Unlock the elevators, checking 2 clicks, white band and 'ELEV' caption.
P - Power (hydraulic) cock - OFF
R - Raise the standby trim guard
E - Exhaust the pitch accumulator (1.5 to 2.5 deg TPI with u/c up, 5.5 to 6.5 with u/c down), then the aileron accumulator
C- Check elevator response
C - Check TPI response using s'by trim switches nose-up/nose-down
C - Changeover switches (Mod 399) - select
Then maintain the control column at the 'load free central' position using stick top switches to set pitch attitude, control column to hold attitude with unlocked elevators. With u/c down before landing, set 3 deg TPI and confirm a push force reqired to maintain level flight; relax push force to flare.
And CUBSTUNT (for AC/DC failure):
C - Cabin altimeter cock to 'Static'
U - S'by UHF ON
B - Boost pump OFF
S - Speed below 300/M0.7
T - Trim to ideal sector
U - Unlock elevators (2 clicks, white band, 'ELEV' caption on)
N - Non essential electrics OFF
T - Transponder to 7700
Last edited by tartare; 3rd Aug 2015 at 01:12.
tartare, when I posted that in 2004 http://www.pprune.org/1391790-post10.html , from which you've cut and pasted my text without acknowldegment, I also said that that I hadn't flown the aircraft since 1975 - so the drills were my vague recollection....