A RAF C17 is going to Tunisia.Slow response from UK?
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A RAF C17 is going to Tunisia.Slow response from UK?
Soon be on its way. I think to help fly people out.
RAF personnel prepare for Tunisia flight - ITV News
Its 72 hours since the attacks. On TV many people caught up in the attack seemed in distress because their travel companies couldn't get them out quick enough (via planes).
I've no idea whether 72 hours+ later is a quick or slow response to help in the mass evacuation of British civilians caught up in the biggest murder of UK nationals abroad I can ever recently remember (someone remind me of a worse one).
But at a guess, I think its slowish.That is not a criticism of anyone.
My question is,seriously, is this where we now are? If you are attacked abroad in a mas outrage, its simply wait it out for easyjet and co?
In these times, is it reasonable to expect help from your own government or military pretty well within 24 hours? 48 hours?
Again, this is not a criticism of anyone.
RAF personnel prepare for Tunisia flight - ITV News
Its 72 hours since the attacks. On TV many people caught up in the attack seemed in distress because their travel companies couldn't get them out quick enough (via planes).
I've no idea whether 72 hours+ later is a quick or slow response to help in the mass evacuation of British civilians caught up in the biggest murder of UK nationals abroad I can ever recently remember (someone remind me of a worse one).
But at a guess, I think its slowish.That is not a criticism of anyone.
My question is,seriously, is this where we now are? If you are attacked abroad in a mas outrage, its simply wait it out for easyjet and co?
In these times, is it reasonable to expect help from your own government or military pretty well within 24 hours? 48 hours?
Again, this is not a criticism of anyone.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
My understanding is it is to repatriate the coffins of the deceased. It has had to wait for the local coroner to identify and release the bodies.
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I don't think there is any need for the government to get involved. The holiday companies can get them home as soon as they can, as they are doing . Everyone is safe now as security will be tight.
The use of military assets for an essentially civilian task has to be asked for by someone outside MOD, and is normally done only where life is at risk or there is no other means of achieving the task. As I understand it, the C17 is on standby for an aeromed task as it is able to fly very sick people in what becomes effectively an airborne intensive care unit. We have Afghanistan to thank for developments with that capability. By the nature of that task, you must have a careful assessment of casualty needs before you embark on it, to make sure you have the right staff and equipment on board (eg you don't fly someone who might require surgical intervention in flight without taking a surgeon with you).
Tragic though this case is, the mass evacuation is currently voluntary and the immediate threat of further violence would seem to have receded somewhat with the death of the individual concerned. The commercial operators are acting as they should by bringing people home as fast as possible, and this has been going on since Friday. This actually an FCO responsibility, as is the repatriation of bodies.
Could the UK have responded faster? The FCO and consular teams were on the spot very quickly, it just didn't make the news. And sending military air assets also requires diplomatic clearance which, as the Nepal experience showed, can take days or not be forthcoming at all. This is where the RN has an advantage, because free passage of international waters allows ships to move wherever. I expect we can all cite examples of the RN diverting ships towards the latest trouble spot. In fact the duty frigate is probably en route right now...
As for expectations of government or military support, it is entirely reasonable to expect rapid consular assistance anywhere in the world. But unless the circumstances are so dangerous or difficult that there is no civilian option, use of military assets should be a last resort and we should not expect it. Nor should we as taxpayers be required to fund the necessary readiness state.
Tragic though this case is, the mass evacuation is currently voluntary and the immediate threat of further violence would seem to have receded somewhat with the death of the individual concerned. The commercial operators are acting as they should by bringing people home as fast as possible, and this has been going on since Friday. This actually an FCO responsibility, as is the repatriation of bodies.
Could the UK have responded faster? The FCO and consular teams were on the spot very quickly, it just didn't make the news. And sending military air assets also requires diplomatic clearance which, as the Nepal experience showed, can take days or not be forthcoming at all. This is where the RN has an advantage, because free passage of international waters allows ships to move wherever. I expect we can all cite examples of the RN diverting ships towards the latest trouble spot. In fact the duty frigate is probably en route right now...
As for expectations of government or military support, it is entirely reasonable to expect rapid consular assistance anywhere in the world. But unless the circumstances are so dangerous or difficult that there is no civilian option, use of military assets should be a last resort and we should not expect it. Nor should we as taxpayers be required to fund the necessary readiness state.
And it seems now as if there may also be a repatriation task. If that is the Govt making a political statement about its anti-terrorism stance, then so be it. I just hope it does not create false expectations for the future. I also hope that it does not cause grief for those whose loved one's non-operational death in service was not deemed high-profile enough to warrant the same treatment as civilians unfortunate enough to die in a terrorist attack while on holiday.
C17 offers more space for a medevac than Voyager, easier tie-down for equipment etc. As for the other repatriation, it will be for coffins so comfort is sadly not an issue.
Gentleman Aviator
Tragic though this case is, the mass evacuation is currently voluntary and the immediate threat of further violence would seem to have receded somewhat with the death of the individual concerned.
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Seems the C-17 must be a remarkable aircraft. Apparently it can fly "while offering medical teams 365 degree access to patients" (RAF News).
Had a look at my Nav protractor (shades of ITW), but I'm five short !
D.
Had a look at my Nav protractor (shades of ITW), but I'm five short !
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 29th Jun 2015 at 16:32. Reason: Complete Attribution.
Clearly someone somewhere high up has auth'd the mission as a UK air ambulance company has already repatriated a patient on Saturday from Tunisia to Wales.
C17 makes sense with an augmented CCAST team in particular with the types of injury sustained, civilian operators have little experience of dealing with gunshot trauma in the in-flight environment. Most civilian AAs are based on the LJ35/36 or King Air/Cheyenne airframes. They are not big enough for a mass casualty evacuation. The only companies that I know that has more than one/two stretcher capable A/C are IAS and Phoenix Air in the USA who use G3s. To use a civil airliner would take time to assemble both material and personnel.
Voyager will have been cleared for medevacs but you need a high lifter to access the cabin a C17 is tried and tested.
Hangershuffle, it may appear slow but you are in an environment where local medical teams will have limited experience, equipment and things like blood and blood products in managing gunshot injuries unlike Camp bastion which was so experienced and knew when it was safe to move patients following resuscitative battle damage surgery. Thankfully in the UK we now have a large number of surgeons and medical teams experienced in this form of surgery back in the NHS and development continues through the Royal College of Surgeons.
C17 makes sense with an augmented CCAST team in particular with the types of injury sustained, civilian operators have little experience of dealing with gunshot trauma in the in-flight environment. Most civilian AAs are based on the LJ35/36 or King Air/Cheyenne airframes. They are not big enough for a mass casualty evacuation. The only companies that I know that has more than one/two stretcher capable A/C are IAS and Phoenix Air in the USA who use G3s. To use a civil airliner would take time to assemble both material and personnel.
Voyager will have been cleared for medevacs but you need a high lifter to access the cabin a C17 is tried and tested.
Hangershuffle, it may appear slow but you are in an environment where local medical teams will have limited experience, equipment and things like blood and blood products in managing gunshot injuries unlike Camp bastion which was so experienced and knew when it was safe to move patients following resuscitative battle damage surgery. Thankfully in the UK we now have a large number of surgeons and medical teams experienced in this form of surgery back in the NHS and development continues through the Royal College of Surgeons.
Last edited by air pig; 29th Jun 2015 at 16:52.
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Back in the early seventies Cyprus was invaded by the Turkish Army and Air Force, The RAF carried out a major evac of the British tourists who in some cases arrived back here still in their beach kit.
C130's, Belfasts, VC10's etc were all involved as were the Phantoms providing air cover.
Mind you, we still had an air capability in those days!
C130's, Belfasts, VC10's etc were all involved as were the Phantoms providing air cover.
Mind you, we still had an air capability in those days!
Cyprus Evacuation 1974
The Lightnings of 56 Sqn were reinforced by a dozen or so Phantoms dispatched to Akrotiri between 21st and 23rd July 1974.
The evacuation included tourists of many nationalities, Cypriot locals, and service families that lived outside the SBAs, including the wife of yours truly.
The evacuation included tourists of many nationalities, Cypriot locals, and service families that lived outside the SBAs, including the wife of yours truly.
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Are the British government reimbursing the families of dead soldiers for the lies of iraq and pointless exploits in Afghanistan??? Ask yourself that question, cock.