Serving in HM Forces harms post mil career chances.
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MGD,
'Leadership' in civvy street these days generally seems limited to the ability to circulate online, Steve Jobs inspirational quotes better than anyone else.
(Update: Apparently, 'productivity is being able to do things that you were never able to do before'. Now you all know
)
'Leadership' in civvy street these days generally seems limited to the ability to circulate online, Steve Jobs inspirational quotes better than anyone else.
(Update: Apparently, 'productivity is being able to do things that you were never able to do before'. Now you all know
)
Last edited by Al R; 26th Jun 2015 at 06:13.
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Admittedly this was a good few years ago but when I did the CS interviewers' course, the instructors commented that ex-military did not know how to present themselves to employers - neither in their CV nor during the job application process. "I was aircrew in the military" did not tell an employer anything. However, I am sure (hope?) that the modern resettlement process addresses these issues!
When I was teaching career change in the 90s one of the topics was "CV Writing". Tried to get over that an employer did not want to know where you had been stationed each 2-3 years and not been court martialled, but what the individual had changed, improved or added value. I did a little sum on the flip chart (remember them) that demonstrated that if the candidate wanted a £20k salary, he/she needed to generate turnover of £250,000 ish, from day1. There was virtually no understanding that many SMEs are funded on loans secured against the owner's personal assets - business fails, Mum and the kids are in the street
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When thinking about joining the management scheme for a famous Scottish fast food chain I was invited for a day at one of their restaurants. I enjoyed the experience of making a batch of Big Macs ,working on the till and the group exercises but less so the interview. When I explained to the interviewer that I had been commissioned after approx 20 years in the ranks, I was berated for quite a while because I had left it so long. He believed that being an officer made me a manager or leader, but all my time as an airman was wasted. I would agree that much of the technical stuff that I had done during this time was not particularly relevant for this job, but he could see no pluses of being an NCO. Maybe it was my fault for not being able to convince him, but he was determined that he was right.
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I would say it does harm your 2nd career prospects in civvy street, if you overly press on about what you did in the mil. Important to convince your new boss that your skills you will bring to your new workplace are fully transferrable.
Expect to fund your training if required to as well, it counts for a lot, cause it wont be on a plate as it is in the mob.
But MGD is right - pay doubles and it is a lot easier and more pleasant if you can get in the door.
* There are hundreds of fat/lazy/stupid/dim/arrogant/unpleasant people who served in the forces that you have to rub along with because you had to - and I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in civvy capacity. Being in the services doesn't make you superman in the jobs market.
Expect to fund your training if required to as well, it counts for a lot, cause it wont be on a plate as it is in the mob.
But MGD is right - pay doubles and it is a lot easier and more pleasant if you can get in the door.
* There are hundreds of fat/lazy/stupid/dim/arrogant/unpleasant people who served in the forces that you have to rub along with because you had to - and I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in civvy capacity. Being in the services doesn't make you superman in the jobs market.
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Unfortuantely Shuffle there are just as many lazy/stupid/dim/arrogant/unpleasant people in civvy street
the difference is you don't have to salute them and they can't put you in chokey if you disagree with them
In my experience ex-Mil types are welcome as long as they don't bang on about how "superior" the miliatry are/were
the difference is you don't have to salute them and they can't put you in chokey if you disagree with them
In my experience ex-Mil types are welcome as long as they don't bang on about how "superior" the miliatry are/were
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Can't say it's either hindered me or helped me. I only recently heard my first disparaging remark after twenty years as a civvy when a 'department head' of one of the establishments I work at said 'Of course his Dad is RAF, there's no wonder he's like he is.'
To which I breezily pointed out that I'm ex RAF also. Cue much flushing of face and stumbling of words by offending party; and the odd remark 'I would never in a million years have said you were ex forces'.
I feel like I've been deprived of something. What is this ex forces thing that I don't have?
To which I breezily pointed out that I'm ex RAF also. Cue much flushing of face and stumbling of words by offending party; and the odd remark 'I would never in a million years have said you were ex forces'.
I feel like I've been deprived of something. What is this ex forces thing that I don't have?
Over the years I have worked with or employed several ex military types, all in technician type roles. These were mostly ex RAF or RN technicians employed as maintenance or service engineers. This was in a small business environment which was largely unstructured and this was the problem. They all found it difficult to live with the flexibility and most had problems with working for the civvies who they had been trained to think of as inferior throughout their military career.
The best one I ever worked with was an ex submariner. His job was to maintain production equipment which was mainly operated by young ladies who found him to be most attractive. This led to him being given the run around until he had a nervous breakdown. He told me that, in 12 years in the Navy, he had been in danger many times with no problems. Six months working with all these ladies broke him.
The best one I ever worked with was an ex submariner. His job was to maintain production equipment which was mainly operated by young ladies who found him to be most attractive. This led to him being given the run around until he had a nervous breakdown. He told me that, in 12 years in the Navy, he had been in danger many times with no problems. Six months working with all these ladies broke him.
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most had problems with working for the civvies who they had been trained to think of as inferior throughout their military career.
When many in the media, politics and public life portray all servicemen, regardless of trade, as dangerous, trained killers, what do you expect?
O it's Tommy this, an Tommy that, an Tommy go away............
O it's Tommy this, an Tommy that, an Tommy go away............
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did not want to know where you had been stationed each 2-3 years
One item read, 'Second i/c transport at RAF Forward Staging Post.'
It transpired that he picked up the groundcrew Landrover, from MT at RAF Masirah, most mornings! He did get the job though.
It's almost impossible to get CVs right.
The usual "we are looking for a team player who can take the lead if needed in a mission-critical, high pressure role" should be adequately answered by "fighter pilot". I mean, what the fu#ck else do they think fighter pilots do? They nicked all these phrases off the military anyway, and they only need you to sell printers.
However, my experience is that half the HR crowd haven't a clue about anyone outside their little world, and can't be @rsed to spend 3 minutes on the internet. So you give it the fourth degree explaining every little point, and get pinged for too much detail.
And most of the other candidates have massively over-egged their CVs, so you are forced to compete.
The usual "we are looking for a team player who can take the lead if needed in a mission-critical, high pressure role" should be adequately answered by "fighter pilot". I mean, what the fu#ck else do they think fighter pilots do? They nicked all these phrases off the military anyway, and they only need you to sell printers.
However, my experience is that half the HR crowd haven't a clue about anyone outside their little world, and can't be @rsed to spend 3 minutes on the internet. So you give it the fourth degree explaining every little point, and get pinged for too much detail.
And most of the other candidates have massively over-egged their CVs, so you are forced to compete.
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"Any man", said Dr. Johnson, "thinks more meanly of himself for not having borne arms for his country".
(It seems that this quotation should correctly end: "for not being a soldier", but this is the form as I first heard it, and I prefer it).
There may be an element of this (envy?) involved.
D.
(It seems that this quotation should correctly end: "for not being a soldier", but this is the form as I first heard it, and I prefer it).
There may be an element of this (envy?) involved.
D.
We aren't great at translating our experience and subsequently selling ourselves, which is a problem as nearly everything I life is about selling something or other whether it be yourself, your team/company, a product or a service. A former colleague chatting with a recruiter before leaving was stunned when his military CV was put in to civvie speak in a polished and targeted manner, he didn't recognise himself.
What does irritate me though is that we are perceived as being institutionalised knuckle-draggers when that clearly isn't the case and people would realise that if only they took the time to listen and learn. A prime example of this was a few years back when a family member my own age and a VP in a major retailing outfit said he would never employ me because I'm institutionalised; what he meant was I knew nothing about retail and therefore was unemployable to him. He failed to see my point when I countered that from my perspective he was institutionalised in retail and I wouldn't want him round the bird table in Helmand.
In this day and age with frequent postings to a wide range of jobs and locations, if not services evey couple of years, plus multinational experience upto and including senior board level depending on your post, institutionalised and inflexible are not words that immediately springs to mind.
Edited to add - As for
I heard a similar modern version of this idea if not quote, reportedly from Stan McChrystal that makes me smile every time I see it, and goes along the lines of
"when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eye and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend because she knows she's dating a pussy"
What does irritate me though is that we are perceived as being institutionalised knuckle-draggers when that clearly isn't the case and people would realise that if only they took the time to listen and learn. A prime example of this was a few years back when a family member my own age and a VP in a major retailing outfit said he would never employ me because I'm institutionalised; what he meant was I knew nothing about retail and therefore was unemployable to him. He failed to see my point when I countered that from my perspective he was institutionalised in retail and I wouldn't want him round the bird table in Helmand.
In this day and age with frequent postings to a wide range of jobs and locations, if not services evey couple of years, plus multinational experience upto and including senior board level depending on your post, institutionalised and inflexible are not words that immediately springs to mind.
Edited to add - As for
"Any man", said Dr. Johnson, "thinks more meanly of himself for not having borne arms for his country ... There may be an element of this (envy?) involved.
D.
D.
"when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eye and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend because she knows she's dating a pussy"
Last edited by Melchett01; 26th Jun 2015 at 23:47.
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Melch,
I agree completely with you. The problem is, he wasn't applying for the bird bath job. It woz his rules.
How many unclaimed education allowances go unclaimed I wonder? It should be instilled, from the word 'go', that one day, the great adventure ends and that soon, you'll be locking horns with the other real world. I'm so out of touch now, but are perpetually unclaimed or untaken up education allowances part of the great PI game for unit commanders?
I know too, that it's a joke, I'm not so rusty I'm naive. The slack simply isn't there to allow it all. Therein lies the dichotomy.. gushing praise from the state this weekend in particular, and cool indifference once the cameras go away. One of the reasons why I'm cool to AFD; it gives misplaced credence to a concept of state support for the troops. Time for a burst of lavish, gushing, love bombing..? Tick. Good, now business as usual again.
I had someone deliver building materials this week; clearly ex-mil. Crisp, no BS, job done.. chop chop chop. I enjoyed his endeavour, his focus and his ability and willingness to get the job done (when it had changed and once a bit of flex was required). Truth be told, I did my "aims, factors, courses, plan" in an instant - as had he. But if I had been a dithering drip instead, a mitherer, I'd have cast him as a bolshy, arrogant b'stard who didn't appreciate the 'getting the job done' over my 'client facing experience'.
Ex-mil(in my experience) are generally seen as corporate gap-fillers.. great middle/upper middle material acting as the glue, pretty much as a good NCO would on a sqn. But to reach the absolute heights of company structure? Companies are like the military too, they also like to see an indoctrination, an institutional compass and corporate grounding.
Otherwise we'd have Richard Branson as CAS, right?
I agree completely with you. The problem is, he wasn't applying for the bird bath job. It woz his rules.
How many unclaimed education allowances go unclaimed I wonder? It should be instilled, from the word 'go', that one day, the great adventure ends and that soon, you'll be locking horns with the other real world. I'm so out of touch now, but are perpetually unclaimed or untaken up education allowances part of the great PI game for unit commanders?
I know too, that it's a joke, I'm not so rusty I'm naive. The slack simply isn't there to allow it all. Therein lies the dichotomy.. gushing praise from the state this weekend in particular, and cool indifference once the cameras go away. One of the reasons why I'm cool to AFD; it gives misplaced credence to a concept of state support for the troops. Time for a burst of lavish, gushing, love bombing..? Tick. Good, now business as usual again.
I had someone deliver building materials this week; clearly ex-mil. Crisp, no BS, job done.. chop chop chop. I enjoyed his endeavour, his focus and his ability and willingness to get the job done (when it had changed and once a bit of flex was required). Truth be told, I did my "aims, factors, courses, plan" in an instant - as had he. But if I had been a dithering drip instead, a mitherer, I'd have cast him as a bolshy, arrogant b'stard who didn't appreciate the 'getting the job done' over my 'client facing experience'.
Ex-mil(in my experience) are generally seen as corporate gap-fillers.. great middle/upper middle material acting as the glue, pretty much as a good NCO would on a sqn. But to reach the absolute heights of company structure? Companies are like the military too, they also like to see an indoctrination, an institutional compass and corporate grounding.
Otherwise we'd have Richard Branson as CAS, right?
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I work for a US multi-national; this is based on my 20-years of working outside the military. We do like ex-military, it wasn't always the case, but recent wars have really hi-lighted the military skill set. Our HR department seem to follow the following; any education, training that's more than 5 years old and not been followed up with experience in that subject is ignored; if it's important and the person deemed "the one", then we will refresh them via a local uni; we have had a few who can't be bothered and move on.
All potential managers are put through something that must be reminiscent of the things you did to get into Cranwell/Sandhurst. Ex-military seem to score really highly in man-management, and tend to start their commercialisation in our operational business units where again, a few drop out; basically, they can't make the break into civilian life.
Those that have moved across into specialist departments have gotten there from starting in operations, then undertaking the training required to equalise their CV with anybody else and express an interest in moving on - equal opportunities will bite you in the back end if this is not done. We have had people take us to tribunals for alleged inequality during the hiring stage.
We do have our fair share of ex-military officer, senior managers; having worked with most of them, I wish I'd met them while serving, they are very good and have made the transition with no problem at all; a few have been "poached" by our US parent company.
All potential managers are put through something that must be reminiscent of the things you did to get into Cranwell/Sandhurst. Ex-military seem to score really highly in man-management, and tend to start their commercialisation in our operational business units where again, a few drop out; basically, they can't make the break into civilian life.
Those that have moved across into specialist departments have gotten there from starting in operations, then undertaking the training required to equalise their CV with anybody else and express an interest in moving on - equal opportunities will bite you in the back end if this is not done. We have had people take us to tribunals for alleged inequality during the hiring stage.
We do have our fair share of ex-military officer, senior managers; having worked with most of them, I wish I'd met them while serving, they are very good and have made the transition with no problem at all; a few have been "poached" by our US parent company.
AlR:-
While I greatly admire the way that Sir Richard has stood up against the "bums and gangsters" that did for Freddie Laker, I do not think that he would make for a very good CAS, having just watched his interview with Andrew Marr. He is another who has been sold the lie that it is "Europe" that has kept the peace in Europe since WW2. It is of course NATO that has done that. For how much longer that peace can last, given the divisions being created by that very same Nobel Peace Prize Winning "Europe", is a different matter of course.
Sir Richard is perhaps a good example of a civilian that has excelled at being one and consequently could not be **sed to study war. Like most civilians, he ignores war at his peril. Most civilians now are blissfully unaware of how quickly it can suddenly appear and why you should prepare for it in order to avoid it. That means more taxes!
we'd have Richard Branson as CAS, right?
Sir Richard is perhaps a good example of a civilian that has excelled at being one and consequently could not be **sed to study war. Like most civilians, he ignores war at his peril. Most civilians now are blissfully unaware of how quickly it can suddenly appear and why you should prepare for it in order to avoid it. That means more taxes!