Quick Thinking Red Devil!
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One Saturday, the Red Devils (or some distant forebears) were en route to a display in a Dominie (old style). An engine packs up. Fully loaded Dominie can't maintain height on one. Pilot appeals to pax to do the decent thing: they oblige. Dominie lands safely at Shawbury.
SDO, Shawbury spends rest of afternoon organising transport to collect castaways from low taverns scattered round Shropshire.
(True Story).
SDO, Shawbury spends rest of afternoon organising transport to collect castaways from low taverns scattered round Shropshire.
(True Story).
Always thought that anyone who chooses to jump out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft is totally bonkers!
After that he took up jumping.
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Thanks for the posts here.
I listened to the news anchors and eye witnesses this morning and thought their versions of what happened may not be entirely informed.
Glad the chaps involved are okay.
I listened to the news anchors and eye witnesses this morning and thought their versions of what happened may not be entirely informed.
Glad the chaps involved are okay.
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As someone who has had the privilege of spending a couple of weeks jumping with The Fred's as a civilian instructor, (waayyy back in the day), from what I have seen, this was an 'into-water demo jump' finishing with some simple canopy relative or CReW work. Most CReW work breaks off at a minimum of 2000ft to allow for the eventuality that occurred here - it's called a 'Wrap' - where a canopy collapses or wraps around another jumper or his kit. Above 2000ft, it is possible to 'cutaway' and deploy a reserve. Note 'cutaway' in this sense means pulling a cutaway pad (not flailing around with blades and knives) which releases the main parachute and risers as, unlike the older round parachutes, ram-air main and reserve canopies cannot fly together.
Along with some other demo teams, The Red Devil's are cleared to land a CReW formation - breaking off at the last moment. The problem with this - as shown in this incident - is that should there be a wrap, the jumpers will be too low to cutaway and deploy reserves. In this event, the top man used his parachute and the partially inflated parachute of the base man to continue to steer to the water - which is exactly where the demo was supposed to end. Good training and quick thinking - as always.
Along with some other demo teams, The Red Devil's are cleared to land a CReW formation - breaking off at the last moment. The problem with this - as shown in this incident - is that should there be a wrap, the jumpers will be too low to cutaway and deploy reserves. In this event, the top man used his parachute and the partially inflated parachute of the base man to continue to steer to the water - which is exactly where the demo was supposed to end. Good training and quick thinking - as always.
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Strake, The show organiser was on the BBC last night claiming the target DZ was 700 meters away from the harbour.
I don't think they would want to put these ZP chutes into the sea for demo purposes.
Does anyone know if the Freds come under the same jurisdiction these days as the Falcons. To my knowledge the Freds were a sports team operating to BPA (British Parachute Association)rules whereas the Falcons is a full time posting governed by the Service rules. MAA?
I am with VX and others. It was pilot error - mid air collision. OK they train for this and got out of jail free on this occasion.
It's great spectacle to watch.
I don't think they would want to put these ZP chutes into the sea for demo purposes.
Does anyone know if the Freds come under the same jurisdiction these days as the Falcons. To my knowledge the Freds were a sports team operating to BPA (British Parachute Association)rules whereas the Falcons is a full time posting governed by the Service rules. MAA?
I am with VX and others. It was pilot error - mid air collision. OK they train for this and got out of jail free on this occasion.
It's great spectacle to watch.
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Well, as Exascot can confirm, I am qualified to critique this 'event'
I have the greatest respect for the Red Fred's and, in years gone by, have jumped with many members of the team.
There are some myths that need laying to rest here. It was a low show due to cloud cover, but within laid down limits.
It was an intentional water descent, with the primary DZ being in one of the Whitehaven harbours. The remainder of the team all landed in the water, just not the same water. Water jumps need a lot of planning to complete safely and from what I can see all relevant safety procedures were in place.
The Red Freds excel in demonstration Canopy Relative Work (CRW) and have been innovators in this discipline for many years. Now, as with all things aviation related, altitude is your friend. It appears in this case that CRW was initiated below 2,500ft. In my day this was strictly verboten, at that height if you have a problem you have no time to correct the situation. As a team leader, if we were intending a CRW display, that would be my absolute minimum for CRW initiation. The normal corrective action (with height available) the guy on top who is wrapped up in the canopy will attempt to free said canopy and, whilst communicating to the guy below, when free drop the guy below. The canopy will then re inflate, normally within a hundred feet or so. If it doesn't inflate the dropped guy would then cutaway his failing main canopy and deploy his reserve. If the guy above cannot free the canopy wrapped around him he will tell the guy below to cutaway and deploy his reserve. This then leaves the guy above with his own canopy flying but still wrapped in a canopy that is now not under tension. Again in most cases you can now untangle yourself and throw the wrapped canopy away and continue to the DZ. In exceptional circumstances the wrap canopy can begin to re inflate around your own lines and at this point becomes entirely unpredictable. Again with sufficient height you would cutaway the two wrapped main canopies and deploy your reserve.
With CRW this is a situation that is trained for rigorously and in this case only became noteworthy due to the lack of altitude.
The question I would be asking is: Who authorised CRW initiation below 2,500ft.
This is the crux of the matter and I would expect that whoever it was will be having a hats on, no coffee with OC Red Devils on Monday morning.
Regardless, for those not familiar, it has been publicity for the team, no one was injured, more importantly no spectators were injured. The number one rule for any display is "Do NOT bend the crowd"
Please note that at no time did I use the words "plunging, plummeting, hurtling or death defying" but then I'm not a qualified journalist.
I have the greatest respect for the Red Fred's and, in years gone by, have jumped with many members of the team.
There are some myths that need laying to rest here. It was a low show due to cloud cover, but within laid down limits.
It was an intentional water descent, with the primary DZ being in one of the Whitehaven harbours. The remainder of the team all landed in the water, just not the same water. Water jumps need a lot of planning to complete safely and from what I can see all relevant safety procedures were in place.
The Red Freds excel in demonstration Canopy Relative Work (CRW) and have been innovators in this discipline for many years. Now, as with all things aviation related, altitude is your friend. It appears in this case that CRW was initiated below 2,500ft. In my day this was strictly verboten, at that height if you have a problem you have no time to correct the situation. As a team leader, if we were intending a CRW display, that would be my absolute minimum for CRW initiation. The normal corrective action (with height available) the guy on top who is wrapped up in the canopy will attempt to free said canopy and, whilst communicating to the guy below, when free drop the guy below. The canopy will then re inflate, normally within a hundred feet or so. If it doesn't inflate the dropped guy would then cutaway his failing main canopy and deploy his reserve. If the guy above cannot free the canopy wrapped around him he will tell the guy below to cutaway and deploy his reserve. This then leaves the guy above with his own canopy flying but still wrapped in a canopy that is now not under tension. Again in most cases you can now untangle yourself and throw the wrapped canopy away and continue to the DZ. In exceptional circumstances the wrap canopy can begin to re inflate around your own lines and at this point becomes entirely unpredictable. Again with sufficient height you would cutaway the two wrapped main canopies and deploy your reserve.
With CRW this is a situation that is trained for rigorously and in this case only became noteworthy due to the lack of altitude.
The question I would be asking is: Who authorised CRW initiation below 2,500ft.
This is the crux of the matter and I would expect that whoever it was will be having a hats on, no coffee with OC Red Devils on Monday morning.
Regardless, for those not familiar, it has been publicity for the team, no one was injured, more importantly no spectators were injured. The number one rule for any display is "Do NOT bend the crowd"
Please note that at no time did I use the words "plunging, plummeting, hurtling or death defying" but then I'm not a qualified journalist.
Last edited by Top Bunk Tester; 21st Jun 2015 at 12:52.
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TBT, my old friend, I wondered when you would stick your head over the parapet on this one and give your highly experienced and proffesional views. Thank you
I have dropped TBT many times - nutters the lot of them
I have dropped TBT many times - nutters the lot of them
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Good explanation TBT.
I still don't see the logic of an intentional immersion into the sea with what we know about the impact on the coated fabrics and lines.
I still don't see the logic of an intentional immersion into the sea with what we know about the impact on the coated fabrics and lines.
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DA
Yeah I hated taking my own kit into water, but if it's team kit and that's what the organiser wants, then so be it. Also some display DZs only offer a water entry. Kit is normally OK if fully rinsed in fresh water post jump and fully dried inside (not in the sun). AADs (Reserve Automatic Activation Devices) used to have to be removed prior to a water descent, although these days they are sealed units so can be immersed. You may find that the Red Devils have kit set aside for water descents only.
Yeah I hated taking my own kit into water, but if it's team kit and that's what the organiser wants, then so be it. Also some display DZs only offer a water entry. Kit is normally OK if fully rinsed in fresh water post jump and fully dried inside (not in the sun). AADs (Reserve Automatic Activation Devices) used to have to be removed prior to a water descent, although these days they are sealed units so can be immersed. You may find that the Red Devils have kit set aside for water descents only.