Squadron Silver
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Squadron Silver
I was asking my dad (ex Green Howards) the other day, what happens to all the regimental silver when a regiment (and its history) is thrown in the bin! He couldn't answer....so, what happens when a squadron is stood down, disbanded etc? There must be lots of squadron "valuables".....I'm just curious as to what happens to it all.
MD
MD
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I think it goes to the central messing fund. It used to be at Wroughton but being as Wroughton is no more (I travelled there for a station volleyball match, seems like yesterday) I haven't a clue where it might be. When squadron numbers are reactivated for reserve reasons I think they dust it off and reissue it. The Navy have a similar deal where their silver finishes up somewhere in Portsmouth which is not too heavily advertised for obvious reasons.
Thread Starter
but there must be stacks of this stuff.......let's face it, the numbers of squadrons/regiments that have been disbanded is, sadly, staggering!!!!!! No doubt at some point the MOD bean counters will just sell it off!!!!!!
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Yeah, probably. I don't know who actually owns stuff like this. I'm a bit of a student of 18th and 19th C military history and a lot of regimental silver was either donated by individuals or captured from the enemy. ( A PC way of saying The French). So it doesn't belong to HMG. Although I'm sure HMG would flog it never the less.
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Mess Silver, Disposal Of.
So the nice little cut-glass and silver inkstand I presented to RAF Thornaby Officer's Mess in November '54 has vanished into some huge, amorphous store, to be flogged off to Bring Down the Deficit ?
As the tray is engraved with my name and the date, I expect it to be returned to me (if asked, PPRuNe knows how to put them in touch with me).
Otherwise, I expect compensation for the (inflation adjusted) fiver it cost me (say £60) plus an element for my hurt feelings.
I will gladly stand aside if they would contribute this sum to the RAF Benevolent Fund.
"Fat chance", you say. Well, I can dream, can't I ?
PS: And what happened to the magnificent silver cup (it put the FA Cup in the shade), donated to 20 Sqn by their old Indian Canteen Contractor as a farewell gift (after he'd robbed them blind for about 20 years out there - and he would have done the catering for all the Messes).
Even if it was sold for silver weight alone, it would amount to something, for it needed two men to carry it.
As the tray is engraved with my name and the date, I expect it to be returned to me (if asked, PPRuNe knows how to put them in touch with me).
Otherwise, I expect compensation for the (inflation adjusted) fiver it cost me (say £60) plus an element for my hurt feelings.
I will gladly stand aside if they would contribute this sum to the RAF Benevolent Fund.
"Fat chance", you say. Well, I can dream, can't I ?
PS: And what happened to the magnificent silver cup (it put the FA Cup in the shade), donated to 20 Sqn by their old Indian Canteen Contractor as a farewell gift (after he'd robbed them blind for about 20 years out there - and he would have done the catering for all the Messes).
Even if it was sold for silver weight alone, it would amount to something, for it needed two men to carry it.
When in a spot of bother with my Staish, I was sent to a North Norfolk base as deputy OC GD Flt! My first job was to audit the station silver! Off I go to the officers mess armed with the relevant list! When the silver cabinet was checked there were several pieces missing! " They have been lent to the Sgts mess" I am told. So off I go to the Sgts mess. No sign of the missing pieces and several pieces listed as being held by the Sgts mess are also missing!
Well off I go SHQ to report my findings! Next day I am ordered to Group HQ for a bollocking and reposting to Scotland! So I never found out what happened to the silver audit! I suspect most of it was never found and have since heard other stories about missing silver!
Well off I go SHQ to report my findings! Next day I am ordered to Group HQ for a bollocking and reposting to Scotland! So I never found out what happened to the silver audit! I suspect most of it was never found and have since heard other stories about missing silver!
Silver used to be stored at RAF Quedgeley (you couldn't make that name up!) but Quedgeley closed in 1995. (Not sure if Wroughton pre-dated Quedgeley? Or vice versa) Tracking down what must be a small mountain of old Mess silver would make for an interesting bit of detective work for someone with a few days to spare.
To my mind, it should all be on display somewhere rather than be flogged off. As the RN is fond of reminding us, the RAF is light on traditions and I shudder at the thought of squadron silver being shovelled into a furnace somewhere for the sake of a few quid.
To my mind, it should all be on display somewhere rather than be flogged off. As the RN is fond of reminding us, the RAF is light on traditions and I shudder at the thought of squadron silver being shovelled into a furnace somewhere for the sake of a few quid.
When I served on Suffolk's phinest phighter squadron, one of our ploys was to take over as many Mess Committee posts as we could, so that we had the majority voice on the committee....
So I was 'invited' to be the Silver Member. Off to the storeroom with the Property Book and the outgoing 'volunteer' to do an audit...
It was chaos! There were more items than the book had recorded, including models of aeroplanes which neither we nor the Crows had ever flown. Mysterious cups, for example from the Wireless Sports Club from RAF Bircham Newton, weren't registered and other items which were, simply weren't there. So I refused point blank to take over the job until the outgoing 'volunteer' had sorted things out.
That was the last I ever heard of it, so I guess the job was palmed off onto someone else.
Of course the pongoes have loads of regimental plunder, compared with the RAF. Apart from the occasional 'silver auction', all surplus RAF silver used to go to RAF Quedgeley for storage. But since Quedgeley closed 20 years ago, lord knows where the silver is now.
Insurance costs also became astronomic, so most mess silver was locked away rather being left in display cabinets, as was once the case.
When I arrived at one station in the early '80s, I was struggling through the corridors with my luggage when a grumpy old so-and-so appeared from a doorway clutching a silver model aeroplane. "What's that!", he grunted as he thrust it under my nose. "Err, I think it's a Whitley, sir", I replied. He just scowled and turned away. Rather rude, I thought - then later in the bar someone told me that he was a long-time passed-over for promotion Flt Lt and was rather bitter and twisted about the fact. Being relatively young and naïve, I hadn't realised that anyone so seemingly ancient could still be a Flt Lt, hence my 'sir' had probably quite irritated him
So I was 'invited' to be the Silver Member. Off to the storeroom with the Property Book and the outgoing 'volunteer' to do an audit...
It was chaos! There were more items than the book had recorded, including models of aeroplanes which neither we nor the Crows had ever flown. Mysterious cups, for example from the Wireless Sports Club from RAF Bircham Newton, weren't registered and other items which were, simply weren't there. So I refused point blank to take over the job until the outgoing 'volunteer' had sorted things out.
That was the last I ever heard of it, so I guess the job was palmed off onto someone else.
Of course the pongoes have loads of regimental plunder, compared with the RAF. Apart from the occasional 'silver auction', all surplus RAF silver used to go to RAF Quedgeley for storage. But since Quedgeley closed 20 years ago, lord knows where the silver is now.
Insurance costs also became astronomic, so most mess silver was locked away rather being left in display cabinets, as was once the case.
When I arrived at one station in the early '80s, I was struggling through the corridors with my luggage when a grumpy old so-and-so appeared from a doorway clutching a silver model aeroplane. "What's that!", he grunted as he thrust it under my nose. "Err, I think it's a Whitley, sir", I replied. He just scowled and turned away. Rather rude, I thought - then later in the bar someone told me that he was a long-time passed-over for promotion Flt Lt and was rather bitter and twisted about the fact. Being relatively young and naïve, I hadn't realised that anyone so seemingly ancient could still be a Flt Lt, hence my 'sir' had probably quite irritated him
I've been trying to get hold of SO2 Heritage at Air Command (High Wycombe) for a while. This person looks after such items- I was hoping to draw some for representational purposes in my overseas post (there, I've inherited and signed for, an eclectic selection of RN silverware including a silver Dreadnought. I don't know where RAF items are stored, last I heard about it, it was at Stafford.
When I'm next back, I might pop up to High Wycombe and try and track down this person; I have a feeling that this post is gapped.
When I'm next back, I might pop up to High Wycombe and try and track down this person; I have a feeling that this post is gapped.
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Mess Property
When our Mess closed in Germany; anything owned by the MOD was returned (to Quedgeley); we then went to a lot of trouble to track down whoever donated any item and offered to return it to them or their family; those items that people didn't want returned were sold off in a Mess Auction and the money given to Forces charities. What was left was offered to our Corps Central Mess; the remainder (not much really) of non-public furniture etc ended up in the auction, then the Mess Staff helped themselves (with our blessing).
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One piece that I would love to know the home of, is the companion of this:
The picture shows Sir Alan Cobham presenting a trophy to the OC of 617, Wing Co. Bastard. It commemorated the 1st non-stop flight from the UK to Australia in 1961.
A few days later, Sir Alan presented the companion piece to 214 Sqdn, who as he said, 'Did all the work'!
This was at a far less formal occasion, attended by all the Sqdn personnel, aircrew and ground crew, in working blue.
That night we had a tremendous thrash in the Families Club at Marham and that was the last time I saw the trophy.
The picture is from the book 'In Cobhams' Company', a must have, for anyone interested in the history of AAR.
The picture shows Sir Alan Cobham presenting a trophy to the OC of 617, Wing Co. Bastard. It commemorated the 1st non-stop flight from the UK to Australia in 1961.
A few days later, Sir Alan presented the companion piece to 214 Sqdn, who as he said, 'Did all the work'!
This was at a far less formal occasion, attended by all the Sqdn personnel, aircrew and ground crew, in working blue.
That night we had a tremendous thrash in the Families Club at Marham and that was the last time I saw the trophy.
The picture is from the book 'In Cobhams' Company', a must have, for anyone interested in the history of AAR.
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Ah, the Silver Store! As Mess Sec at Watton in the early 70s, the PMC (Hi, Jock, if you're reading this) and I did a seriously deep look at whet we were holding, as the Insurance costs for a very small Mess [just Eastern Radar, maybe 35 officers?] were significant.
Oh, the stuff we found! It included, for some strange reason, 2 large pewter plates of considerable vintage [17th c IIRC]. Anyway, various correspondence ensued. There was some interesting stuff, battered stuff, and assorted cr@p - much of it associated with long-defunct sqns. After appropriate staffing, some went to Quedgely, a coupe of items to the RAF Museum, and we were authorised to auction much of the rest to Mess members for the benefit of Mess funds.
Apart from the ancient pewter plates, a couple of items stick in my memory:
Oh, the stuff we found! It included, for some strange reason, 2 large pewter plates of considerable vintage [17th c IIRC]. Anyway, various correspondence ensued. There was some interesting stuff, battered stuff, and assorted cr@p - much of it associated with long-defunct sqns. After appropriate staffing, some went to Quedgely, a coupe of items to the RAF Museum, and we were authorised to auction much of the rest to Mess members for the benefit of Mess funds.
Apart from the ancient pewter plates, a couple of items stick in my memory:
* A solid silver tankard marking the 100th enemy aircraft shot down by 100 Gp aircraft, engraved with the names of all the crew on that particular mission ... that went to the RAF Museum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF
* A collection of 9 or so 1/2 pint silver tankards, all presented to a Hunter sqn by departing members ... we kept those behind the Bar, to be used by ladies who drank beer [in small quantities ]
Sadly I got nothing from the auction, but the PMC got a 2 pint [!] tankard which had been presented to 245 Sqn by Sgt D J Rhodes. He sent me a picture of it last year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF
* A collection of 9 or so 1/2 pint silver tankards, all presented to a Hunter sqn by departing members ... we kept those behind the Bar, to be used by ladies who drank beer [in small quantities
]
Thread Starter
Gents......I'm shocked! Some of these items will be of huge historical value.....and, no doubt considerable monetary value. An ancient regiment such as my dads, the Green Howards, must have had enormous amounts! These items, in many cases, must represent historical events in the life of a squadron or regiment!! I could have understood them being displayed somewhere central for future generations......this is actually very sad!
MD
(or maybe I'm just taking it all a little too seriously?)
MD
(or maybe I'm just taking it all a little too seriously?)
Silver
When my son left school and before going to University, he did a one year "gap" commission in the Army with the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment, already an amalgamation of 3 county regiments. Since then and further amalgamations time has moved on. The Glosters have gone their own way but the B & W parts have a joint association HQ(?) and museum in Salisbury. The same old problem seems to have occurred with too much silver and either insufficient space to store or display or the costs are excessive. Anyway, their solution was to offer it to the families of those who had donated (if appropriate and traceable) and then to offer it first of all to the Regimental Family under sealed bids. My son came under that last heading and is now the proud owner of several magnificent items. There is to be a second disposal tranche as well and anything not want by the "family" will go into public auction and all proceeds go into the Regimental Charity. We should do exactly the same with redundant Air Force memorabilia.
the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment, already an amalgamation of 3 county regiments.
a lot of regimental silver was either donated by individuals or captured from the enemy. ( A PC way of saying The French).
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As a guest to the Sgts Mess of the Queens Own Highlanders, I was amazed at the amount of stunning historic silver pieces on display on a table in Mess foyer. Had that been my Mess, they would have been locked in a safe and only brought out for special occasions; when I asked my host about the security of these items, he told me that they had a general policy that the Mess silver should be on display to the members. I wonder what happened to it all when they amalgamated with the Gordon's; they must have had a similar stash?
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Mopardave
Surely the Green Howards have a home for their silver at Richmond in the regimental museum?
Isn't the name still living in some form as a battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment?
Surely the Green Howards have a home for their silver at Richmond in the regimental museum?
Isn't the name still living in some form as a battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment?
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Squdron Silver
I have often thought about this myself and thought - like sidevalve - a display of Squadron silverware would make temporary and interesting exhibition at Hendon and/or Cosford??
Any thoughts on that??
Any thoughts on that??