Have we been 'invaded'?
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Have we been 'invaded'?
Here's something that has puzzled me for many a year: UK territorial airpsace does, I believe, extend 12nm from the coast of UK. The English Channel at its narrowest is, I think just under 18nm wide.
Question 1: How do we 'divide' soveriegn airspace with the French at the narrowest point?
Question2: (the big one?) If Russian a/c transit the narrowest part of the Channel WITHOUT dip clearance, they must, presumably, be breaching our limits?
So, did the Bears have dip clearance and a flight plan?
Question 1: How do we 'divide' soveriegn airspace with the French at the narrowest point?
Question2: (the big one?) If Russian a/c transit the narrowest part of the Channel WITHOUT dip clearance, they must, presumably, be breaching our limits?
So, did the Bears have dip clearance and a flight plan?
The FIR boundaries are shown on this chart: http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2015-04-02.pdf
This has been done for years, we used to do it to and from Gibraltar - along the FIR boundary! They will probably have a flight plan but not dip clearance.
This has been done for years, we used to do it to and from Gibraltar - along the FIR boundary! They will probably have a flight plan but not dip clearance.
As BN said, this used to be pretty common. Transit along the FIR boundary at VFR levels, monitor relevant ATC freqs, don't talk to either. IIRC national airspace is limited to the equidistant point where it narrows. The UK and France can't both claim 12nms in the Channel.
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Groucho asked:
Question2: (the big one?) If Russian a/c transit the narrowest part of the Channel WITHOUT dip clearance, they must, presumably, be breaching our limits?
So, did the Bears have dip clearance and a flight plan?
Question2: (the big one?) If Russian a/c transit the narrowest part of the Channel WITHOUT dip clearance, they must, presumably, be breaching our limits?
So, did the Bears have dip clearance and a flight plan?
To clarify the above, the recent incident when Bears were supposed to have flown right up the English Channel and into the North Sea was incorrectly reported. The aircraft did in fact turn mid channel (somewhere South of the IOW?) and returned West whence they came.
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I had the (wrong) impression that the ships were 'escorted' by TU95s as they transitted La Manche, but it seems they were met in the North Sea. I should have twigged when the news said QRA from Lossie!
It still remains an interesting question though, IF.............? TTN appears to be happy if they stay 'on the line'?
I recall in the 70's a TU16 (Badger) flew inside the 'mouth' of the Firth of Forth just outside the 12nm line, and I believe it was at low level.
It still remains an interesting question though, IF.............? TTN appears to be happy if they stay 'on the line'?
I recall in the 70's a TU16 (Badger) flew inside the 'mouth' of the Firth of Forth just outside the 12nm line, and I believe it was at low level.
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Do you think they can get them to do Eastbourne's airshow?
I recall in the 70's a TU16 (Badger) flew inside the 'mouth' of the Firth of Forth just outside the 12nm line, and I believe it was at low level.
Thread drift but aren't some of the FIR boundary wpts on the London/Paris border named after English admirals who beat the French. BENBO, HAWKE etc?
Not to be confused with DELBO and BOYSI to the east (of Peckham!).
Not to be confused with DELBO and BOYSI to the east (of Peckham!).
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Territorial waters are often claimed on "base line principals". Note I Said CLAIMED.
For instance UK could claim 12 miles off Great Yarmouth to 12 miles off Cape Wrath.
OTOH hand this can be challenged as happened during Confrontation with Sunda Strait and Lombok Channel. The USA often contest Russian waters because of this. The Russians could legitimately claim that the English Channel is an international water way. Remember too there are traffic separation lanes and the east bound is on the English side.
During the Cold War the Shetlands Tug was often on or just inside the 3 mile limit and the Malin AGI was known to transit the North Channel and monitor the testing ranges at West Freugh and Eskmeals.
There should be free flight in FIR but of course some countries, such as Greece contest this
For instance UK could claim 12 miles off Great Yarmouth to 12 miles off Cape Wrath.
OTOH hand this can be challenged as happened during Confrontation with Sunda Strait and Lombok Channel. The USA often contest Russian waters because of this. The Russians could legitimately claim that the English Channel is an international water way. Remember too there are traffic separation lanes and the east bound is on the English side.
During the Cold War the Shetlands Tug was often on or just inside the 3 mile limit and the Malin AGI was known to transit the North Channel and monitor the testing ranges at West Freugh and Eskmeals.
There should be free flight in FIR but of course some countries, such as Greece contest this
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 15th Apr 2015 at 07:02.
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Thread drift but aren't some of the FIR boundary wpts on the London/Paris border named after English admirals who beat the French. BENBO, HAWKE etc?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
PN, the 12nm territorial limit is international law under the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
The disputes concerning Souda Bay, Lombok Channel etc concern the Right of Innocent Passage.
The disputes concerning Souda Bay, Lombok Channel etc concern the Right of Innocent Passage.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ORAC, true, in the case of Sunda Strait etc, this predated the law. It could be argued the English Channel is innocent passage.
While the 12 mile limit is one thing, straightaway base line principle is something else.
While the 12 mile limit is one thing, straightaway base line principle is something else.