A fresh A400M woe....or is it a French AF woe?
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A fresh A400M woe....or is it a French AF woe?
A capability shortfall in the Airbus A400M tactical airlifter has left France facing the potential inability to refuel military helicopters, a requirement that French defense procurement agency DGA says the aircraft may never fulfill.
However, the DGA said April 3 it is continuing to work with A400M prime contractor Airbus Defense and Space to find a solution to the capability gap, and it has no plans to purchase Lockheed Martin C-130Js from the U.S. “Our priority is to get the full capacity of the A400M,” the DGA said, adding that it “denies that it is trying to buy American C-130J aircraft to fill the gap” as reported in an April 2 article in French aerospace journal Air & Cosmos that claimed the DGA planned to buy five of the airlifters.
According to the DGA, the Airbus-built A400M turboprop engines create excessive turbulence when refueling French helicopters. A June 2013 test involving Airbus EC725 Caracal helicopters was successful only after extending the A400M’s refueling cable, a solution the DGA found unacceptable. “The refueling capacity is one of the specifications of the A400M,” Airbus said in an April 3 statement. “Nothing today allows us to announce that the customer has given up on this capacity. Nothing seems to justify the purchase of numbers of tactical American aircraft for this reason only.”
According to the DGA, the Airbus-built A400M turboprop engines create excessive turbulence when refueling French helicopters. A June 2013 test involving Airbus EC725 Caracal helicopters was successful only after extending the A400M’s refueling cable, a solution the DGA found unacceptable.
one wonders: extending it how much?
one wonders: why was such extension found to be unacceptable? (Guessing limits of size on a reel inside the A400M, but there could be other reasons).
Nothing seems to justify the purchase of numbers of tactical American aircraft for this reason only.”
seems like a storm in a tea cup ! A. how many operators actually regularly do IFR with helicopters that are likely to buy?
B. doesn't common sense tell you its going to be marginal at best on a really big turboprop ?
B. doesn't common sense tell you its going to be marginal at best on a really big turboprop ?
Lonewolf_50
The refueling capability is real except for less than 10 French helicopters.
for other potential customers who will want the refueling capability to be real rather than paper.
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Solution....
Shut down the two inboard engines during Helicopter refuelling with a Hose Drum unit through the back door.. Job Done!
Shut down the two inboard engines during Helicopter refuelling with a Hose Drum unit through the back door.. Job Done!
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A June 2013 test involving Airbus EC725 Caracal helicopters was successful only after extending the A400M’s refueling cable
Enjoying the noodles, T_t?
Fine aircraft that the A400M is, I always wondered how well helicopter AAR was going to work. The original brochure talked of flying the A400M 'at the widely acceptable speed margin of 5 knots above the stall', with 25º of flap extended. No doubt that would mean rather high drag and consequently a high thrust requirement? When we did low-speed drogue work for the C-130 with the VC10K with flap/slat extended, the drag was so high that the fuel burn was colossal - something like 10 tonne/hr.
So waffling along in the A400M on a hot day with a jousting Puma GTi sniffing at the drogue would no doubt be rather exciting for all involved. At 5 KIAS above the stall, turns at greater than 15º AoB might be rather....interesting?
Fine aircraft that the A400M is, I always wondered how well helicopter AAR was going to work. The original brochure talked of flying the A400M 'at the widely acceptable speed margin of 5 knots above the stall', with 25º of flap extended. No doubt that would mean rather high drag and consequently a high thrust requirement? When we did low-speed drogue work for the C-130 with the VC10K with flap/slat extended, the drag was so high that the fuel burn was colossal - something like 10 tonne/hr.
So waffling along in the A400M on a hot day with a jousting Puma GTi sniffing at the drogue would no doubt be rather exciting for all involved. At 5 KIAS above the stall, turns at greater than 15º AoB might be rather....interesting?
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McD studied helicopter refueling using C-17 and had a similar problem. Too much dirty air behind the aircraft. The solution was to move the hose/drogue reel to the top of the T-tail. Really clean air up there. But no one bought the tanker version of the C-17 so the solution was mooted. Maybe Airbus could try the same approach with the A400M. This assumes of course there is room for the hose drogue reel up there. The C-17 tail is signifcantly bigger than A400M.
Maybe Probe and Drogue AAR just isn't for Helos - Can you really afford a basket or hose through the rotor disc?
Anyone considered combining HIFR with the way Alan Cobham did AAR before P&D? ie using a graple on the helos winch cable to snag the hose and then lift it up to the HIFR point. This has the benefit of the Helo being above the tanker wake and a broken cable or hose will be well clear of the rotor disc (the cable rebounding into the disc may need some thought).
Anyone considered combining HIFR with the way Alan Cobham did AAR before P&D? ie using a graple on the helos winch cable to snag the hose and then lift it up to the HIFR point. This has the benefit of the Helo being above the tanker wake and a broken cable or hose will be well clear of the rotor disc (the cable rebounding into the disc may need some thought).
Americans have been doing it for years.
They do have the odd mishap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdpKpppZiA
http://theaviationist.com/2013/04/15...ueling-can-be/
They do have the odd mishap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdpKpppZiA
http://theaviationist.com/2013/04/15...ueling-can-be/
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Further to the DGA's comment from April: A400M helicopter aerial refueling now a research project
"It is a case of separating the helicopter from the wake of the A400M,” explained Fernando Alonso, head of Airbus Defense and Space’s military aircraft division (and part-time F1 racer). "Right now we have 90 ft. hoses. Are we able to build 120-150 foot hoses? Are we able to stabilise it? So it is really a research activity and we are embarking with research organisations in order to develop this capability so we at least know whether it is possible or not."
I/C
"It is a case of separating the helicopter from the wake of the A400M,” explained Fernando Alonso, head of Airbus Defense and Space’s military aircraft division (and part-time F1 racer). "Right now we have 90 ft. hoses. Are we able to build 120-150 foot hoses? Are we able to stabilise it? So it is really a research activity and we are embarking with research organisations in order to develop this capability so we at least know whether it is possible or not."
I/C
I suppose a KC-46 is out of the question. 
Apologies for the thread drift, but has anyone heard when the accident report for the A400 crash in Spain is expected?
This is more than idle curiosity on my part - several (commercial) operators came to Boeing in the aftermath of the crash, wanting to know how we protect from a similar FADEC s/w problem.
It's rather hard to answer that question when you don't know the root cause
This is more than idle curiosity on my part - several (commercial) operators came to Boeing in the aftermath of the crash, wanting to know how we protect from a similar FADEC s/w problem.
It's rather hard to answer that question when you don't know the root cause
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Airbus Hopeful of Turning Around A400M Program
Some positive news about the A400 after the tragedy.
Regarding the paratrooper "crossover problem", C-17 had the exact same problem. MDC resolved it with a combination of airspeed, deck angle, air deflector angle, and air deflector hole pattern. C-17 also had the dirty air problem for refueling helicopters. MDC's solution was to move the hose to the top of the vertical tail. But no one bought the tanker version of the C-17.
Airbus Hopeful of Turning Around A400M Program
Aviation Week & Space Technology 11/05/2015
Airbus believes that it may finally be turning around its long-troubled A400M program.
While the loss of MSN23 in May created ripple effects for the company’s delivery, manufacturing and capability testing of the airlifter, a new management team has stabilized the industrial layout. The changes pave the way for increased rates of production-—and will allow Airbus to focus on the tactical capabilities demanded by customer nations, ideally bringing them into service in 2016.
Company officials are even bullish about the A400M’s export prospects.
“Even if we are having difficulties industrializing the aircraft [and] in developing the capabilities we have committed to with the nations, I think we are lucky that we have a fantastic platform,” says Fernando Alonso, head of Airbus Defense and Space’s military aircraft division. “The air forces are frustrated and eager to get those capabilities.”
But there are still details to be resolved. Airbus must renegotiate with the Organization for Joint Armament Cooperation (Occar)—the European defense agency representing the seven partner nations—about the time line for how and when those capabilities are to be delivered. The company has dropped its plans for a staggered introduction of capabilities based on Standard Operating Clearances. Instead, airlifters will be delivered with tactical capabilities as and when they are ready, while a full common standard aircraft with all capabilities installed is scheduled be delivered in 2018.
This staggered process means aircraft will have to be retrofit at least once, and in some cases twice, to bring them up to full specification, says new program head Kurt Rossner.
He says an intense test program for the capabilities is ongoing, and many tactical capabilities including delivery of loads and paratroopers, aerial refueling and operations from unpaved surfaces have already been proven, and would be certified in 2016.
Late delivery of the A400M’s tactical capabilities has been the bugbear of some partner nations. At the beginning of the year, the German government was highly critical of the slow progress. This resulted in Domingo Urena-Raso being summarily replaced by Alonso, while Rossner took over for Rafael Tentor as A400M program head.
“We had to do a clean-up [on the development of capabilities]” said Alonso, speaking to journalists in Seville on Oct. 26. “When I arrived it was sort of ambiguous, it looked like there were a lot of missing capabilities, but in fact there are not that many.
“There are some discrete areas where we have problems,” he added. “We have identified them and we are tackling them one after the other.”
But the flight-test program’s biggest disappointment may prove to be the discovery that the A400M, at least in its current configuration, will not be able to refuel helicopters because of challenges associated with turbulence off the back of the airlifter.
“It’s physically not possible given the length of the hoses, given the wake of the aircraft, and the power of the helicopters that are going to be refueled,” said Alonso.
Tests with Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracals demonstrated that the rotorcraft could maneuver into the precontact position, but holding it for the refueling process proved difficult for pilots. Another concern was that crews were unable to see the horizontal tail plane of the A400M while in the refueling position, an issue Alonso describes as a dangerous situation.
“It is a case of separating the helicopter from the wake of the A400M,” explains Alonso. “Right now we have 90-ft. hoses. Are we able to build 120-150-ft. hoses? Are we able to stabilize it? It is really a research activity and we are embarking with research organizations in order to develop this capability, so we at least know whether it is possible.”
Airbus engineers are also trying to resolve what they call a “crossover issue” which is preventing simultaneous dropping of paratroopers from the doors on each side of the rear fuselage. The aerodynamics involved drag paratroopers around behind the aircraft; simulations suggest that if two paratroopers jump at the same time there is a risk of them colliding.
The issue mainly affects large groups of paratroopers. The aircraft could potentially drop a stick of 114 paratroopers, with 57 going through each door. The company is working with the British and French defense ministries to resolve the anomaly, and will carry out more flight trials the first half of 2016.
But both of these are relatively minor matters, and the helicopter refueling issue only impacts France at the moment. Earlier this year, French defense officials revealed that options had been discussed to either purchase and convert secondhand C-130 Hercules or its newly built KC-130Js from Lockheed Martin to gap the A400M’s shortfall. Airbus may be hoping to fill this hole itself with the development of a helicopter refueling capability for its C295 twin-turboprop transport.
Spain’s Technical Research Committee on Military Aircraft Accidents is expected to deliver its report on the cause of the May 9 crash by the year-end. Repercussions from the incident, which killed four flight-test personnel, are still being felt.
Airbus has been unable to ramp up production to its 2015 goal. The grounding of production aircraft meant that A400Ms were stuck in the handover process. The company had planned on delivering at least 23 aircraft to customers this year; it currently expects to hand over 13-17.
But the final tally is dependent on the speed of customer acceptance processes. Airbus hopes to ramp production back up to 23 aircraft in 2016.
Five air forces are now operating the A400M, with the U.K. Royal Air Force the fleet leader in flight hours and experience. The entire five-nation fleet had achieved more than 4,500 flight hours by the end of September.
The company has also begun negotiations on the shape of its planned Global Support Model to provide in-service support to the fleet in the coming years.
Despite a number of nations saying they plan to cut the number of A400Ms they plan to buy-—most notably Germany and Spain—Rossner says there has been “no discussion on the number of aircraft uptake,” with Occar. Turkey wants an additional aircraft to replace the lost MSN23. Rossner says he hopes to replace the airframe as soon as possible and was in contact with the nation to find a delivery slot.
Although the goal of achieving an export contract for the aircraft this year is looking less likely, Antonio Barberan, Airbus military aircraft’s head of sales says the environmental conditions in the market that led him to believe a first customer would be signed on in 2015 were still viable.
The company says it has made proposals to nine customers and that serious negotiations are underway. Airbus believes it can sell more than 300 aircraft over 30 years, and 50 in the next five.
Barberan refused to comment, however, on reports out of Spain that Egypt had signed up to buy the aircraft.
An Andalucian newspaper reported Oct. 5 that senior managers had told factory staff that Egypt wanted the aircraft as soon as possible. No numbers were cited, but it is likely Egypt will want the aircraft to replace its existing fleet of C-130H Hercules.
Barberan confirmed that the aircraft had also been demonstrated to Saudi Arabian and Algerian armed forces. Three Latin American countries have also been presented with proposals.
“This aircraft will have success,” says Alonso, “I am confident that within the next 24 months we will start getting contracts with other nations.
“I hope I will be right,” he adds.
Regarding the paratrooper "crossover problem", C-17 had the exact same problem. MDC resolved it with a combination of airspeed, deck angle, air deflector angle, and air deflector hole pattern. C-17 also had the dirty air problem for refueling helicopters. MDC's solution was to move the hose to the top of the vertical tail. But no one bought the tanker version of the C-17.
Airbus Hopeful of Turning Around A400M Program
Aviation Week & Space Technology 11/05/2015
Airbus believes that it may finally be turning around its long-troubled A400M program.
While the loss of MSN23 in May created ripple effects for the company’s delivery, manufacturing and capability testing of the airlifter, a new management team has stabilized the industrial layout. The changes pave the way for increased rates of production-—and will allow Airbus to focus on the tactical capabilities demanded by customer nations, ideally bringing them into service in 2016.
Company officials are even bullish about the A400M’s export prospects.
“Even if we are having difficulties industrializing the aircraft [and] in developing the capabilities we have committed to with the nations, I think we are lucky that we have a fantastic platform,” says Fernando Alonso, head of Airbus Defense and Space’s military aircraft division. “The air forces are frustrated and eager to get those capabilities.”
But there are still details to be resolved. Airbus must renegotiate with the Organization for Joint Armament Cooperation (Occar)—the European defense agency representing the seven partner nations—about the time line for how and when those capabilities are to be delivered. The company has dropped its plans for a staggered introduction of capabilities based on Standard Operating Clearances. Instead, airlifters will be delivered with tactical capabilities as and when they are ready, while a full common standard aircraft with all capabilities installed is scheduled be delivered in 2018.
This staggered process means aircraft will have to be retrofit at least once, and in some cases twice, to bring them up to full specification, says new program head Kurt Rossner.
He says an intense test program for the capabilities is ongoing, and many tactical capabilities including delivery of loads and paratroopers, aerial refueling and operations from unpaved surfaces have already been proven, and would be certified in 2016.
Late delivery of the A400M’s tactical capabilities has been the bugbear of some partner nations. At the beginning of the year, the German government was highly critical of the slow progress. This resulted in Domingo Urena-Raso being summarily replaced by Alonso, while Rossner took over for Rafael Tentor as A400M program head.
“We had to do a clean-up [on the development of capabilities]” said Alonso, speaking to journalists in Seville on Oct. 26. “When I arrived it was sort of ambiguous, it looked like there were a lot of missing capabilities, but in fact there are not that many.
“There are some discrete areas where we have problems,” he added. “We have identified them and we are tackling them one after the other.”
But the flight-test program’s biggest disappointment may prove to be the discovery that the A400M, at least in its current configuration, will not be able to refuel helicopters because of challenges associated with turbulence off the back of the airlifter.
“It’s physically not possible given the length of the hoses, given the wake of the aircraft, and the power of the helicopters that are going to be refueled,” said Alonso.
Tests with Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracals demonstrated that the rotorcraft could maneuver into the precontact position, but holding it for the refueling process proved difficult for pilots. Another concern was that crews were unable to see the horizontal tail plane of the A400M while in the refueling position, an issue Alonso describes as a dangerous situation.
“It is a case of separating the helicopter from the wake of the A400M,” explains Alonso. “Right now we have 90-ft. hoses. Are we able to build 120-150-ft. hoses? Are we able to stabilize it? It is really a research activity and we are embarking with research organizations in order to develop this capability, so we at least know whether it is possible.”
Airbus engineers are also trying to resolve what they call a “crossover issue” which is preventing simultaneous dropping of paratroopers from the doors on each side of the rear fuselage. The aerodynamics involved drag paratroopers around behind the aircraft; simulations suggest that if two paratroopers jump at the same time there is a risk of them colliding.
The issue mainly affects large groups of paratroopers. The aircraft could potentially drop a stick of 114 paratroopers, with 57 going through each door. The company is working with the British and French defense ministries to resolve the anomaly, and will carry out more flight trials the first half of 2016.
But both of these are relatively minor matters, and the helicopter refueling issue only impacts France at the moment. Earlier this year, French defense officials revealed that options had been discussed to either purchase and convert secondhand C-130 Hercules or its newly built KC-130Js from Lockheed Martin to gap the A400M’s shortfall. Airbus may be hoping to fill this hole itself with the development of a helicopter refueling capability for its C295 twin-turboprop transport.
Spain’s Technical Research Committee on Military Aircraft Accidents is expected to deliver its report on the cause of the May 9 crash by the year-end. Repercussions from the incident, which killed four flight-test personnel, are still being felt.
Airbus has been unable to ramp up production to its 2015 goal. The grounding of production aircraft meant that A400Ms were stuck in the handover process. The company had planned on delivering at least 23 aircraft to customers this year; it currently expects to hand over 13-17.
But the final tally is dependent on the speed of customer acceptance processes. Airbus hopes to ramp production back up to 23 aircraft in 2016.
Five air forces are now operating the A400M, with the U.K. Royal Air Force the fleet leader in flight hours and experience. The entire five-nation fleet had achieved more than 4,500 flight hours by the end of September.
The company has also begun negotiations on the shape of its planned Global Support Model to provide in-service support to the fleet in the coming years.
Despite a number of nations saying they plan to cut the number of A400Ms they plan to buy-—most notably Germany and Spain—Rossner says there has been “no discussion on the number of aircraft uptake,” with Occar. Turkey wants an additional aircraft to replace the lost MSN23. Rossner says he hopes to replace the airframe as soon as possible and was in contact with the nation to find a delivery slot.
Although the goal of achieving an export contract for the aircraft this year is looking less likely, Antonio Barberan, Airbus military aircraft’s head of sales says the environmental conditions in the market that led him to believe a first customer would be signed on in 2015 were still viable.
The company says it has made proposals to nine customers and that serious negotiations are underway. Airbus believes it can sell more than 300 aircraft over 30 years, and 50 in the next five.
Barberan refused to comment, however, on reports out of Spain that Egypt had signed up to buy the aircraft.
An Andalucian newspaper reported Oct. 5 that senior managers had told factory staff that Egypt wanted the aircraft as soon as possible. No numbers were cited, but it is likely Egypt will want the aircraft to replace its existing fleet of C-130H Hercules.
Barberan confirmed that the aircraft had also been demonstrated to Saudi Arabian and Algerian armed forces. Three Latin American countries have also been presented with proposals.
“This aircraft will have success,” says Alonso, “I am confident that within the next 24 months we will start getting contracts with other nations.
“I hope I will be right,” he adds.